I can only offer a scenario to your first point - that is given the apathy around (re) elections, with several uncontested years, it is feasible that a relatively small group could elect their own nominees, if the poor turn out was repeated. If the incumbents themselves received sufficiently small numbers of votes. I suppose then that they could be replaced by an 'extreme' replacement, although a perfectly legitimate process, so not 'extreme' as such......!Stan A. Einstein wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:14 pmOkay let's develop this. As once again I agree with your analysis.whoareya wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:46 pm
I assume its to limit personal/asset risk if things go pear-shaped, akin to the limited liability act 1855.
If its purely operational then it could be to limit the influence of a Community Trust that could easily and legitimately elect an extreme Trust Board and create havoc and destruction if it wasn't separated by constitution?
It is often debated that the 'club' board is secretive and self serving, but imagine the implication for the County if a coup was launched from the Trust end?
Why would an extreme Trust board be likely to be elected?
And in any event why are Messrs Ward, Foxall and Johnson alone to decide that the Trust are not to be trusted?
In effect a small number control the club. What's to stop them being extreme?
There is only one reason for having two boards. It's to ensure those who have power at Newport County keep hold of it.
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
107Evening Brendan,Stan A. Einstein wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:14 pmOkay let's develop this. As once again I agree with your analysis.whoareya wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:46 pm
I assume its to limit personal/asset risk if things go pear-shaped, akin to the limited liability act 1855.
If its purely operational then it could be to limit the influence of a Community Trust that could easily and legitimately elect an extreme Trust Board and create havoc and destruction if it wasn't separated by constitution?
It is often debated that the 'club' board is secretive and self serving, but imagine the implication for the County if a coup was launched from the Trust end?
Why would an extreme Trust board be likely to be elected?
And in any event why are Messrs Ward, Foxall and Johnson alone to decide that the Trust are not to be trusted?
In effect a small number control the club. What's to stop them being extreme?
There is only one reason for having two boards. It's to ensure those who have power at Newport County keep hold of it.
As I have mentioned, I had concerns about the way the club was structured. I made some enquiries. I was eventually told that the way the club is run with the number of boards was in line with the recommendation of the Supporters Trust. If Newport County are wrong in doing it this way, then all the other clubs that run their clubs on the Supporters trust model are wrong as well.
That of course is not to say that they have everything right, but we are not alone in doing it this way. The scope of this subject is huge and it took me many months to get my head around it.
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
108Thanks that's helpful.pembsexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:35 pmIt’s the other way around. It’s the Supporters Trust model rules. Doesn’t mean that they are the model rules for all types of clubs.Bangitintrnet wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:07 pmWould the model rules be those of clubs run by a trust?Amberexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:47 pmIt would certainly help people to understand if this was made more easily available. I remembered seeing it previously and saving a copy so thought that it should be on the documents section of the Trust website but it isn't and while I found it pretty easily, that is mainly because I knew what I was looking for and got it as the first result on a simple Google search. It is basically a more County specific version of what the model rules outline. While I can't say I agree with every aspect of it and I guess there is a fine line between making something publicly available and force feeding people. I also think it lacks one level of explanation of why to go with the how even if that is pretty obvious.OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:01 pmI thank you for that link also, and at least it confirms my understanding and explains far more eruditely what I was trying to say earlier.Amberexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:20 pmThere is a pdf, somewhat out of date with regards to the names therein, which goes to explain the goveranance model, relationship between the boards etc. It is available on the club website and can be downloaded here -pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 6:19 pmShwmae Mark,OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:30 pmShwmae Mike,pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:10 pmI think there are a few of us that are concerned and care about the governance of the club. As you know, about a year ago I was trying to find out how the Supporters Trust and the football club work ‘in reality’. It took a long time to get an answer. I was concerned that Directors of both committees appear to work on both. I wasn’t sure if that was correct. I spoke with Two Directors and I can say that I was given reassurance (which I wanted) that the way the club is run is in accordance with guidelines.whoareya wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:29 pmThat possibly includes Messrs Greenhauff and Southall, who, IIRC, were to gift their shares to the Trust once the fundraising was successfully completed?pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:01 pm
Don’t think that’s true mate. The Supporters Trust own 63% (approx) of the club. The rest (I believe) is owned by previous shareholders or others. If you do some research you can get accurate info’ on this.
I posted about this several years ago but no clear answer was forthcoming.
The conundrum here is that, only a dozen or so posters on here raise issues at will, expecting answers back on here.
Even fewer actually make an effort to find out and even fewer persist until they get answers.
However unpalatable, the truth is that not enough supporters care, are interested enough, or even see any problem with how things are currently run.
Equally unpalatable is the fact that, to make things change, you have to be part of the change.
Having Board members re-elected unopposed several times confirms there is no appetite for change.
That said, I wouldn’t want to do their job, a thankless task. Good luck to them.
I was one of those that shared your concerns about the legitimacy of how the club was being governed; I don't believed we appreciated that the football club group and community club group were in effect sub divisions of the overarching Trust board and all directors sat on one of those sub divisions and the full trust board, which I am assured is allowable within the model rules of supporters trusts.
Having said that I do feel that the transparency of the club leaves a lot to be desired, especially in relation to the widespread speculation of an wealthy individual expressing an interest in investing in the football club. Surely some public statement should be forthcoming, even it is to dispell rumours.
Of course being a director is a thankless task . My guess is the vast majority of supporters are just thankful and content that we are still competing in the EFL, and making small annual profits.
Agree with everything you have written there of course.
With regards to transparency, one of the things I did suggest with the chats was an Excel type spreadsheet put on the Trust web page explaining how the structure of the club works. I think this would alleviate a lot of problems as I think people don’t understand the structure. I certainly didn’t. It wasn’t on the webpage last time I looked. Maybe it has been put somewhere else and I haven’t seen it. I think it would be a good idea.
https://www.newport-county.co.uk/siteas ... paper-.pdf
Would it be appropriate to describe the structure as 3 boards, 2 income focused, feeding into the main board?
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
109Yep, that’s how I see it. Somebody please correct me if I am wrong (and I have been before on this) but:Bangitintrnet wrote: February 1st, 2023, 7:13 pmThanks that's helpful.pembsexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:35 pmIt’s the other way around. It’s the Supporters Trust model rules. Doesn’t mean that they are the model rules for all types of clubs.Bangitintrnet wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:07 pmWould the model rules be those of clubs run by a trust?Amberexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:47 pmIt would certainly help people to understand if this was made more easily available. I remembered seeing it previously and saving a copy so thought that it should be on the documents section of the Trust website but it isn't and while I found it pretty easily, that is mainly because I knew what I was looking for and got it as the first result on a simple Google search. It is basically a more County specific version of what the model rules outline. While I can't say I agree with every aspect of it and I guess there is a fine line between making something publicly available and force feeding people. I also think it lacks one level of explanation of why to go with the how even if that is pretty obvious.OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:01 pmI thank you for that link also, and at least it confirms my understanding and explains far more eruditely what I was trying to say earlier.Amberexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:20 pmThere is a pdf, somewhat out of date with regards to the names therein, which goes to explain the goveranance model, relationship between the boards etc. It is available on the club website and can be downloaded here -pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 6:19 pmShwmae Mark,OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:30 pmShwmae Mike,pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:10 pmI think there are a few of us that are concerned and care about the governance of the club. As you know, about a year ago I was trying to find out how the Supporters Trust and the football club work ‘in reality’. It took a long time to get an answer. I was concerned that Directors of both committees appear to work on both. I wasn’t sure if that was correct. I spoke with Two Directors and I can say that I was given reassurance (which I wanted) that the way the club is run is in accordance with guidelines.whoareya wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:29 pm
That possibly includes Messrs Greenhauff and Southall, who, IIRC, were to gift their shares to the Trust once the fundraising was successfully completed?
I posted about this several years ago but no clear answer was forthcoming.
The conundrum here is that, only a dozen or so posters on here raise issues at will, expecting answers back on here.
Even fewer actually make an effort to find out and even fewer persist until they get answers.
However unpalatable, the truth is that not enough supporters care, are interested enough, or even see any problem with how things are currently run.
Equally unpalatable is the fact that, to make things change, you have to be part of the change.
Having Board members re-elected unopposed several times confirms there is no appetite for change.
That said, I wouldn’t want to do their job, a thankless task. Good luck to them.
I was one of those that shared your concerns about the legitimacy of how the club was being governed; I don't believed we appreciated that the football club group and community club group were in effect sub divisions of the overarching Trust board and all directors sat on one of those sub divisions and the full trust board, which I am assured is allowable within the model rules of supporters trusts.
Having said that I do feel that the transparency of the club leaves a lot to be desired, especially in relation to the widespread speculation of an wealthy individual expressing an interest in investing in the football club. Surely some public statement should be forthcoming, even it is to dispell rumours.
Of course being a director is a thankless task . My guess is the vast majority of supporters are just thankful and content that we are still competing in the EFL, and making small annual profits.
Agree with everything you have written there of course.
With regards to transparency, one of the things I did suggest with the chats was an Excel type spreadsheet put on the Trust web page explaining how the structure of the club works. I think this would alleviate a lot of problems as I think people don’t understand the structure. I certainly didn’t. It wasn’t on the webpage last time I looked. Maybe it has been put somewhere else and I haven’t seen it. I think it would be a good idea.
https://www.newport-county.co.uk/siteas ... paper-.pdf
Would it be appropriate to describe the structure as 3 boards, 2 income focused, feeding into the main board?
You have the Supporters Trust Board who are in charge. All the shares (Trust owned, privately owned) are in that group. The owners as such. The Community Board and the Newport County football board are under them in the hierarchy.
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
110I'm sure most will refer to it as 3 boards, although to be pedantic, as I'm often am, I believe the official wording is 2 groups which are responsible for the day to day running i.e. football club and community club which reports to and is ultimately answerable to the one supporters trust board, which normally meets on a monthly basis.Bangitintrnet wrote: February 1st, 2023, 7:13 pmThanks that's helpful.pembsexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 6:35 pmIt’s the other way around. It’s the Supporters Trust model rules. Doesn’t mean that they are the model rules for all types of clubs.Bangitintrnet wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:07 pmWould the model rules be those of clubs run by a trust?Amberexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:47 pmIt would certainly help people to understand if this was made more easily available. I remembered seeing it previously and saving a copy so thought that it should be on the documents section of the Trust website but it isn't and while I found it pretty easily, that is mainly because I knew what I was looking for and got it as the first result on a simple Google search. It is basically a more County specific version of what the model rules outline. While I can't say I agree with every aspect of it and I guess there is a fine line between making something publicly available and force feeding people. I also think it lacks one level of explanation of why to go with the how even if that is pretty obvious.OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:01 pmI thank you for that link also, and at least it confirms my understanding and explains far more eruditely what I was trying to say earlier.Amberexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:20 pmThere is a pdf, somewhat out of date with regards to the names therein, which goes to explain the goveranance model, relationship between the boards etc. It is available on the club website and can be downloaded here -pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 6:19 pmShwmae Mark,OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:30 pmShwmae Mike,pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:10 pmI think there are a few of us that are concerned and care about the governance of the club. As you know, about a year ago I was trying to find out how the Supporters Trust and the football club work ‘in reality’. It took a long time to get an answer. I was concerned that Directors of both committees appear to work on both. I wasn’t sure if that was correct. I spoke with Two Directors and I can say that I was given reassurance (which I wanted) that the way the club is run is in accordance with guidelines.whoareya wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:29 pm
That possibly includes Messrs Greenhauff and Southall, who, IIRC, were to gift their shares to the Trust once the fundraising was successfully completed?
I posted about this several years ago but no clear answer was forthcoming.
The conundrum here is that, only a dozen or so posters on here raise issues at will, expecting answers back on here.
Even fewer actually make an effort to find out and even fewer persist until they get answers.
However unpalatable, the truth is that not enough supporters care, are interested enough, or even see any problem with how things are currently run.
Equally unpalatable is the fact that, to make things change, you have to be part of the change.
Having Board members re-elected unopposed several times confirms there is no appetite for change.
That said, I wouldn’t want to do their job, a thankless task. Good luck to them.
I was one of those that shared your concerns about the legitimacy of how the club was being governed; I don't believed we appreciated that the football club group and community club group were in effect sub divisions of the overarching Trust board and all directors sat on one of those sub divisions and the full trust board, which I am assured is allowable within the model rules of supporters trusts.
Having said that I do feel that the transparency of the club leaves a lot to be desired, especially in relation to the widespread speculation of an wealthy individual expressing an interest in investing in the football club. Surely some public statement should be forthcoming, even it is to dispell rumours.
Of course being a director is a thankless task . My guess is the vast majority of supporters are just thankful and content that we are still competing in the EFL, and making small annual profits.
Agree with everything you have written there of course.
With regards to transparency, one of the things I did suggest with the chats was an Excel type spreadsheet put on the Trust web page explaining how the structure of the club works. I think this would alleviate a lot of problems as I think people don’t understand the structure. I certainly didn’t. It wasn’t on the webpage last time I looked. Maybe it has been put somewhere else and I haven’t seen it. I think it would be a good idea.
https://www.newport-county.co.uk/siteas ... paper-.pdf
Would it be appropriate to describe the structure as 3 boards, 2 income focused, feeding into the main board?
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
111It is the Supporters Direct Model Rules as published on the Trust website here -Bangitintrnet wrote: February 1st, 2023, 5:07 pmWould the model rules be those of clubs run by a trust?Amberexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:47 pmIt would certainly help people to understand if this was made more easily available. I remembered seeing it previously and saving a copy so thought that it should be on the documents section of the Trust website but it isn't and while I found it pretty easily, that is mainly because I knew what I was looking for and got it as the first result on a simple Google search. It is basically a more County specific version of what the model rules outline. While I can't say I agree with every aspect of it and I guess there is a fine line between making something publicly available and force feeding people. I also think it lacks one level of explanation of why to go with the how even if that is pretty obvious.OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: February 1st, 2023, 4:01 pmI thank you for that link also, and at least it confirms my understanding and explains far more eruditely what I was trying to say earlier.Amberexile wrote: February 1st, 2023, 2:20 pmThere is a pdf, somewhat out of date with regards to the names therein, which goes to explain the goveranance model, relationship between the boards etc. It is available on the club website and can be downloaded here -pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 6:19 pmShwmae Mark,OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:30 pmShwmae Mike,pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:10 pmI think there are a few of us that are concerned and care about the governance of the club. As you know, about a year ago I was trying to find out how the Supporters Trust and the football club work ‘in reality’. It took a long time to get an answer. I was concerned that Directors of both committees appear to work on both. I wasn’t sure if that was correct. I spoke with Two Directors and I can say that I was given reassurance (which I wanted) that the way the club is run is in accordance with guidelines.whoareya wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:29 pmThat possibly includes Messrs Greenhauff and Southall, who, IIRC, were to gift their shares to the Trust once the fundraising was successfully completed?pembsexile wrote: January 31st, 2023, 1:01 pm
Don’t think that’s true mate. The Supporters Trust own 63% (approx) of the club. The rest (I believe) is owned by previous shareholders or others. If you do some research you can get accurate info’ on this.
I posted about this several years ago but no clear answer was forthcoming.
The conundrum here is that, only a dozen or so posters on here raise issues at will, expecting answers back on here.
Even fewer actually make an effort to find out and even fewer persist until they get answers.
However unpalatable, the truth is that not enough supporters care, are interested enough, or even see any problem with how things are currently run.
Equally unpalatable is the fact that, to make things change, you have to be part of the change.
Having Board members re-elected unopposed several times confirms there is no appetite for change.
That said, I wouldn’t want to do their job, a thankless task. Good luck to them.
I was one of those that shared your concerns about the legitimacy of how the club was being governed; I don't believed we appreciated that the football club group and community club group were in effect sub divisions of the overarching Trust board and all directors sat on one of those sub divisions and the full trust board, which I am assured is allowable within the model rules of supporters trusts.
Having said that I do feel that the transparency of the club leaves a lot to be desired, especially in relation to the widespread speculation of an wealthy individual expressing an interest in investing in the football club. Surely some public statement should be forthcoming, even it is to dispell rumours.
Of course being a director is a thankless task . My guess is the vast majority of supporters are just thankful and content that we are still competing in the EFL, and making small annual profits.
Agree with everything you have written there of course.
With regards to transparency, one of the things I did suggest with the chats was an Excel type spreadsheet put on the Trust web page explaining how the structure of the club works. I think this would alleviate a lot of problems as I think people don’t understand the structure. I certainly didn’t. It wasn’t on the webpage last time I looked. Maybe it has been put somewhere else and I haven’t seen it. I think it would be a good idea.
https://www.newport-county.co.uk/siteas ... paper-.pdf
https://www.ncafctrust.org/media/downlo ... _Rules.pdf
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
112If you want to see how a Trust should be run then have a look at the Exeter Trust website, and note the striking differences between their communication with supporters compared to ours.
https://www.weownexetercityfc.co.uk/trust-board
https://www.weownexetercityfc.co.uk/trust-board
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
114There aren't two boardsStan A. Einstein wrote: February 1st, 2023, 10:50 pm Why have two boards?
Would it not be more simple to just have one?
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
115We're like the football equivalent of the Vicar of Dibley and their village meetings. 'Should we sack Rowberry? No no no no no, yes!'
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
116My comments after reading the Exeter City Trust meeting minutes for the 2022 monthly meetings:-Taunton Iron Cider wrote: February 1st, 2023, 9:09 pm If you want to see how a Trust should be run then have a look at the Exeter Trust website, and note the striking differences between their communication with supporters compared to ours.
https://www.weownexetercityfc.co.uk/trust-board
Exeter have more trust board members than us, and thus have more groups established to feed into the main Trust board group.
Exeter have more trust members (3500 to 4000) depending on the time of season. Joining the Exeter Trust costs as little as £2 per month, ours £5 per month, so not sure if it brings in more income, but likely to. They are looking at ways to increase membership to 5000 but have hit a plateu.
The Exeter Trust board paid £4000 to Newport County for damage which their supporters caused in Newport.
Olfrade Zanzala was one of a few Exeter players to attend one of the zoom meetings (presumably to improve the numbers watching)
Exeter have total assets of 3 million pounds, and are trying to reduce their dependency on windfall payments in order to get to a sustainable playing budget.
Exeter are celebrating 20 years as a Trust run club this year, we are half that age, and sometimes it shows reading their minutes, particularly with the amount of people that they have to work on things that produce content.
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
117Bangitinthenet raises an interesting point above. As he points out 1,500 Trust members paying £5 a month will indeed bring in more money than 3,000 paying £2 a month. Although 1,000 at £5 gives you less 3,000 at £2.
But for me the real point has to be, do we want to build a team who entertain on the pitch alone, or do we wish to build a club embedded in the community?
In an age where people on limited incomes are forced to use foodbanks football is a luxury for many. My view is that we would do well to remember that.
But for me the real point has to be, do we want to build a team who entertain on the pitch alone, or do we wish to build a club embedded in the community?
In an age where people on limited incomes are forced to use foodbanks football is a luxury for many. My view is that we would do well to remember that.
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
118Interesting about the prices
I do mystery shopping for various companies checking up on those fundraisers that try to stop you in the street, When I first started doing it you could sign up for 2 quid a month but now I'm told that at that price the organisation's would be losing money with the admin costs etc
I do mystery shopping for various companies checking up on those fundraisers that try to stop you in the street, When I first started doing it you could sign up for 2 quid a month but now I'm told that at that price the organisation's would be losing money with the admin costs etc
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
119A podcast comparing Exeter City and Wimbledon trusts, including discussion with Shaun the sheep.Stan A. Einstein wrote: January 31st, 2023, 11:59 amBy whom Shaun the sheep?Bangitintrnet wrote: January 31st, 2023, 10:42 am
The club has also been independently judged 1st and 4th on quality of information released by league 2 clubs in recent years.
Re: Dilemma (Wrexham)
120We need to remember that Exeter and AFC Wimbledon (especially Wimbledon) are based in more affluent areas with a bigger catchment than us - we know the Exeter fans try to pretend they are working class Devonians but most are relatively wealthy - Exeter also has a long standing 'indy' and 'arty' (=hipster) tradition whereas Newport does not so much - Newportonians are rebellious in nature but are less able to or simply can't/don't/won't put their money where their mouth is.Bangitintrnet wrote: February 2nd, 2023, 12:14 pmMy comments after reading the Exeter City Trust meeting minutes for the 2022 monthly meetings:-Taunton Iron Cider wrote: February 1st, 2023, 9:09 pm If you want to see how a Trust should be run then have a look at the Exeter Trust website, and note the striking differences between their communication with supporters compared to ours.
https://www.weownexetercityfc.co.uk/trust-board
Exeter have more trust board members than us, and thus have more groups established to feed into the main Trust board group.
Exeter have more trust members (3500 to 4000) depending on the time of season. Joining the Exeter Trust costs as little as £2 per month, ours £5 per month, so not sure if it brings in more income, but likely to. They are looking at ways to increase membership to 5000 but have hit a plateu.
The Exeter Trust board paid £4000 to Newport County for damage which their supporters caused in Newport.
Olfrade Zanzala was one of a few Exeter players to attend one of the zoom meetings (presumably to improve the numbers watching)
Exeter have total assets of 3 million pounds, and are trying to reduce their dependency on windfall payments in order to get to a sustainable playing budget.
Exeter are celebrating 20 years as a Trust run club this year, we are half that age, and sometimes it shows reading their minutes, particularly with the amount of people that they have to work on things that produce content.
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