DT1892 wrote: December 15th, 2022, 4:41 pm

DeePeeNCAFC wrote: December 13th, 2022, 9:57 am Any figures showing the number of active Welsh speakers are heavily distorted by, what I consider to be, a really restrictive and pointless WG mandate that all children are taught Welsh at school and that GCSE Welsh is compulsory.

They’ve done this at the expense of learning other key languages like French, German and Chinese which are much more important for a career than Welsh is.

My kids all did Welsh GCSE are confused that it was so easy to get a pass that it devalues the whole exam system.

One of the benefits of Welsh being taught from 3-16 is so that children have a consistent language to learn throughout so that they have the chance to continue to develop those language building skills within one language.

Other languages are taught, but when one school does French, another might do German or Spanish. If your child moves school, they might not do French anymore, but will start learning German. At least with Welsh, they have a consistent language to learn throughout their time in compulsory education.

That's a good point I hadn't considered. I've stated I wasn't in favour of making Welsh compulsory to GCSE, although am now having 2nd thoughts.

I'm a Welsh language sceptic/curmudgeon, Mind you, parochialism is a pet hate.

My mate (originally from Brighton) sends his kids to a Welsh school. He felt a bit of a plonker during lockdown, mind

Careers where speaking Welsh is an asset:
Welsh government
Welsh public sector work generally
Welsh Media
are the ones that spring immediately to mind.

Welsh-speaking teachers definitely have the inside track, though demand generally outstrips supply for teaching jobs whether you speak Welsh or not..

OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: December 15th, 2022, 12:28 pm

UPTHEPORT wrote: December 15th, 2022, 12:22 pm Well there's more Welsh schools opening than ever in SE Wales my granddaughter goes to Welsh nursery and hopefully my grandson.

Wife and myself are new to learning it's very hard the older you get.

I'd say the numbers will be vastly better next time

Da iawn up the port.Pob lwc with your learning.
Should I now refer to you as lan y portladd?

bore da

That's about my level at the the moment it's very difficult the older you get

pembsexile wrote: December 12th, 2022, 7:28 pm There was a BBC report about the apparent declining use of the Welsh language a few days ago. They do a good graph showing the declining use of the language between the 3 and 15 age group compared to 2011. These figures are very disappointing. I would add a message of caution. The figures were obtained during the Covid pandemic. There was a lot of remote learning going on.

Furthermore, they state in the article that the figures for Welsh language speakers aged over three in 1981 was 503,500. They then state that the figures for 2021 was 538,300. There have never been so few Welsh speakers in a census report they say. Well, I’m not superb at maths but I make that a 6.5% increase on 1981.

As a complete guess, if this info is based on census data, then the number of first language Welsh will reduce as older speakers pass away, to be replaced by say English home owners.
In the case of Newport the number of Polish first language has increased, but I doubt people able to speak Welsh, would put Welsh as their first language on a census.

UPTHEPORT wrote: December 16th, 2022, 8:01 am

OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: December 15th, 2022, 12:28 pm

UPTHEPORT wrote: December 15th, 2022, 12:22 pm Well there's more Welsh schools opening than ever in SE Wales my granddaughter goes to Welsh nursery and hopefully my grandson.

Wife and myself are new to learning it's very hard the older you get.

I'd say the numbers will be vastly better next time

Da iawn up the port.Pob lwc with your learning.
Should I now refer to you as lan y portladd?

bore da

That's about my level at the the moment it's very difficult the older you get

Bore da, Lan y porthladd ( up the port). Dal ati (keep at it).
Accept it's very difficult the older you get. It's very difficult to let go of the very many years of entrenched/automatic thinking of how sentences must be constructed, and adopting new pronunciations that do not exist in English. Let alone those damned mutations. Mutilations is probably a better description.
I was in my sixties, and retired, when I started weekly classes for the same reason as yourself, with others from very diverse backgrounds who commenced their learning for many different reasons. I found the benefit of this class learning was a very pro-social, encouraging, and even fun, experience; and still meet and communicate in Welsh with some of those with whom I starting my learning classes, before the pandemic halted them. One of whom is even a Cardiff City supporter. I wouldn't expect you to go that far, of course.
I realise that individuals have different preferred learning methods and some will progress quicker via online apps (duo lingo etc) or book reading, especially if you are a shift worker.

A quick translation test for you. Ein gem nesa yw yn erbyn y hongian mwnci Sure you'll work it out.

Tan tro nesa (until next time)

Bangitintrnet wrote: December 16th, 2022, 8:32 am

pembsexile wrote: December 12th, 2022, 7:28 pm There was a BBC report about the apparent declining use of the Welsh language a few days ago. They do a good graph showing the declining use of the language between the 3 and 15 age group compared to 2011. These figures are very disappointing. I would add a message of caution. The figures were obtained during the Covid pandemic. There was a lot of remote learning going on.

Furthermore, they state in the article that the figures for Welsh language speakers aged over three in 1981 was 503,500. They then state that the figures for 2021 was 538,300. There have never been so few Welsh speakers in a census report they say. Well, I’m not superb at maths but I make that a 6.5% increase on 1981.

As a complete guess, if this info is based on census data, then the number of first language Welsh will reduce as older speakers pass away, to be replaced by say English home owners.
In the case of Newport the number of Polish first language has increased, but I doubt people able to speak Welsh, would put Welsh as their first language on a census.

Usually treat such surveys with scepticism.
I recently heard on an old QI TV programme that a survey in Iowa indicated that 1 in 6 men have had sex with a chicken; and a radio 2 survey that 7 out of 10 people don't believe in the findings of public surveys.
What conclusions can be derived from these?

Don't eat Kentucky fried chicken in Iowa or lamb in Wales?

OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: December 15th, 2022, 3:45 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: December 15th, 2022, 3:12 pm

UPTHEPORT wrote: December 15th, 2022, 12:22 pm Well there's more Welsh schools opening than ever in SE Wales my granddaughter goes to Welsh nursery and hopefully my grandson.

Wife and myself are new to learning it's very hard the older you get.

I'd say the numbers will be vastly better next time

All good points, but somewhat counter intuitively it’s not working is it? As quickly as young children learn languages they easily forget them if not used or subsumed by other languages - in this case English (my god daughters have all but forgotten their ethnic [mothers] mother tongue [not Welsh] they spoke almost exclusively at home until aged 5 they are pretty much English only now - only the eldest has any real grasp of it).

The main issues are 1) some/many of the children attending Welsh medium primary school don’t then attend Welsh medium high schools, 2) most of South East Wales and large parts of mid/north Wales borderland have only a small % of Welsh speakers - its simply not the language of business or daily life for 70% of people in Wales, even in roles where the ‘compulsory’ job sepc calls for Welsh speakers its likely Welsh isn’t widely used [given 70% of even the Welsh, let alone UK population speak or understand it].

Not a ‘dig’ or a denigration of Welsh just a fact.

You make many good points and agree than attempts to increase the number of Welsh speakers is not working as well as is intended. Can also understand that the spending of money on the aim is wasted. I'm contented however, that the opportunities are widely available for the majority who wish to learn the language and the desire is high enough amongst enough of the population to keep the language alive even if that means the number doesn't significantly rise above the half mullion mark.
What I don't understand or agree with is your apparent resentment towards what you described as 'Welsh speaking middle class cartel' and the 'middle class Pontcanna set.'
I interpret this as a sign of bitterness on your part. Personally I've never encountered any of these people to whom you refer. My social circle in Newport and Torfaen, of those of us who are able to converse with each other in the language, admittedly only at a very basic level, are certainly not middle class. They are probably better described as RAF!

No ‘bitterness’ – in fairness I was being slightly facetious but there is a strain of upper middle class Welsh speakers particularly in/around the posher parts of Cardiff who see the ability to speak Welsh as a some sort of badge of honour and also helps to bake in inequality – 1) the Welsh speakers drift in from the farming/other areas of Wales to study and get good, usually public sector, job 2) they pop a few kids and send them to the ‘good’ schools invariably Welsh medium 3) said kids post university get on the gravy train of the same type of jobs as their parents and rinse and repeat – it’s a real ‘thing’. I don’t include those who DO speak Welsh every day in the more rural West/Mid/North West areas - but rather those who deliberately use Welsh as an almost show offy way – ‘you speak English, everyone else speaks English, few people can understand Welsh stop laying it on thick guys! Yes we know your are originally from Carmarthenshire and moved down to Cardiff to study and work as a diversity and inclusion officer for an Arts Charity’…the only ‘bitterness’ is the implication that I, an avowed non Welsh speaker, long with 70% of the Welsh population who do not speak/understand Welsh are somehow ‘less Welsh’ than the 30% who do [speak/understand Welsh] and are locked out of [often well paying] jobs because they don't speak/understand a language that is not spoken/understood by 70% of the population the employers serve! In reality its actually a powerful minority group/lobby having it over the majority which is almost unjust in fact (as we have seen certain religions/racial/ethnic groups do in certain eras and still in certain states).

Interestingly the more well off people are the more likely they are to favour both speaking Welsh and independence (at least from European trends anyway – as with Catalonia as a similar example [to Wales] the wealthier people a far more predisposed to speaking Catalan and Catalan independence) working class/lower middle class people particularly those working in the private sector have less of a stake in the Welsh language (their jobs and personal value don’t depend on it) and also would be far less insulated against the economic privations that independence would inevitably bring (in the short term anyway) – for the majority of Wales and its people the language and the fanciful notion of ’independence’ is largely irrelevant – hence the steady [slightly declining] numbers of Welsh speakers.

I think this issue has been recognised by the Senedd, and since the pandemic those employed directly by the Welsh Government (they have 10 offices spread across Wales) are not obliged to spend more than 10% of their working month actually in their base office. Working from home is now very much encouraged unlike in the Westminster controlled Welsh Office in Cathays.
Since devolution the number of Welsh tax offices and staff has also reduced drastically.

Bangitintrnet wrote: December 16th, 2022, 11:08 am Don't eat Kentucky fried chicken in Iowa or lamb in Wales?

Not the first post you have made yhat made me laugh out loud.

But undoubtedly the first post you have made which made me laugh out loud for the right reasons.

Bangitintrnet wrote: December 16th, 2022, 11:08 am Don't eat Kentucky fried chicken in Iowa or lamb in Wales?

OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: December 16th, 2022, 1:40 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: December 16th, 2022, 11:08 am Don't eat Kentucky fried chicken in Iowa or lamb in Wales?

When County played Derby (the Rams), the County choir sang "we're sheepshagger's and we know we are" followed by "and we've shagged your mother"
A twist I doubt many Derby fans were expecting.

The old ‘Welsh won’t help you get a job, you’re better off learning French/German/Spanish’ etc etc nonsense always rears it’s head when debating why Welsh people shouldn’t learn Welsh. Genuinely, how many people do you know from school work in a place where they need to speak a foreign language?
It’s not, and shouldn’t simply be about whether it may/may not help you in work, it’s about not letting our native language die. I’m glad all my children learn and embrace the Welsh language, something that was not taught to me in St Julian’s comprehensive (which our English headmistress used to take great pleasure to tell us it was pointless and a dead language).

Exile 1976 wrote: December 16th, 2022, 2:36 pm The old ‘Welsh won’t help you get a job, you’re better off learning French/German/Spanish’ etc etc nonsense always rears it’s head when debating why Welsh people shouldn’t learn Welsh. Genuinely, how many people do you know from school work in a place where they need to speak a foreign language?
It’s not, and shouldn’t simply be about whether it may/may not help you in work, it’s about not letting our native language die. I’m glad all my children learn and embrace the Welsh language, something that was not taught to me in St Julian’s comprehensive (which our English headmistress used to take great pleasure to tell us it was pointless and a dead language).

Evidently your headmistress and my Headmaster, co-incidentally the same school, were both wrong. Enough people clearly will not let the language die. I find it rather sad that some are apparently uncomfortable with that, and feel it necessary to decry that aspiration.
Er gwaetha pawb a phopeth .
Y hen iaith yn barhau.