I caused some consternation on here around my views on the Welsh language, interesting and counter intuitive that despite the blind obsession & millions spent on/around it it’s use is DECLINING. Interesting too that the narratives around Irishness are not wedded to the ability to speak or enthusiasm for Gaelic.

I post not to prove any point I’m just genuinely interested in this, and despite some misinterpretation of my position on this, I’m not anti Celtic languages.

There was a BBC report about the apparent declining use of the Welsh language a few days ago. They do a good graph showing the declining use of the language between the 3 and 15 age group compared to 2011. These figures are very disappointing. I would add a message of caution. The figures were obtained during the Covid pandemic. There was a lot of remote learning going on.

Furthermore, they state in the article that the figures for Welsh language speakers aged over three in 1981 was 503,500. They then state that the figures for 2021 was 538,300. There have never been so few Welsh speakers in a census report they say. Well, I’m not superb at maths but I make that a 6.5% increase on 1981.

pembsexile wrote: December 12th, 2022, 7:28 pm There was a BBC report about the apparent declining use of the Welsh language a few days ago. They do a good graph showing the declining use of the language between the 3 and 15 age group compared to 2011. These figures are very disappointing. I would add a message of caution. The figures were obtained during the Covid pandemic. There was a lot of remote learning going on.

Furthermore, they state in the article that the figures for Welsh language speakers aged over three in 1981 was 503,500. They then state that the figures for 2021 was 538,300. There have never been so few Welsh speakers in a census report they say. Well, I’m not superb at maths but I make that a 6.5% increase on 1981.

I share your view of the recent disappointing figures and scepticism of those self reported figures amongst the 3 to 15 age group. Haven't done any in depth research on the subject, but was under the impression that Welsh medium school places in Wales were increasing rather than declining. I note that's certainly the case in Newport and Torfaen.
As for stats regarding total Welsh speakers I have read recently that the best estimate of the population of Wales in 1801 was 587,000, admittedly before official censors started. If that estimate is anywhere near accurate and the vast majority were Welsh speakers then it would indicate that over the last 2 centuries the number of speakers is roughly the same, yet obviously percentage wise a decline. Stats are often open to interpretation and perspective, and certainly relevant to this matter in my view,
The phrase widely attributed to Disraeli 'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics' still rings true.
What I am confident of, however, is the Welsh language, despite everything is still enduring and not dying, or even terminal, as many have predicted over the decades and centuries.

Any figures showing the number of active Welsh speakers are heavily distorted by, what I consider to be, a really restrictive and pointless WG mandate that all children are taught Welsh at school and that GCSE Welsh is compulsory.

They’ve done this at the expense of learning other key languages like French, German and Chinese which are much more important for a career than Welsh is.

My kids all did Welsh GCSE are confused that it was so easy to get a pass that it devalues the whole exam system.

DeePeeNCAFC wrote: December 13th, 2022, 9:57 am Any figures showing the number of active Welsh speakers are heavily distorted by, what I consider to be, a really restrictive and pointless WG mandate that all children are taught Welsh at school and that GCSE Welsh is compulsory.

They’ve done this at the expense of learning other key languages like French, German and Chinese which are much more important for a career than Welsh is.

My kids all did Welsh GCSE are confused that it was so easy to get a pass that it devalues the whole exam system.

I agree with your opinion that any report on how many active Welsh speakers there are is heavily distorted.
However, I believe what you state as a fact i.e. 'other key languages are much more important for a career than Welsh' is only an opinion. I personally don't profess to be knowledgeable enough on the subject to know how many career opportunities there currently are or predicted to be in the future, for those with qualifications/ abilities in any given language. How does one definitively assess what is 'much more' as to simply 'more'? I remain open minded.
P.s. for what it's worth I'm not in favour of compulsory Welsh to GCSE level at the expense of other languages, but would be in favour of the aspiration of making it available for all pupils who wish to do so. Furthermore I would favour the aspiration to make places available for all in the 3-18 age bracket who wish/ are deemed eligible to attend a Welsh medium ( bi-lingual education) , with the proviso, of course, that the opportunity is available for pupils to study other languages e.g. French, German etc. Whilst at ysgolion gyfan.

This graph shows the ballance of payment's, which show how dependent the UK is on finance, to ballance import of goods and services.

In and around Newport we have Admiral and Go Compare to ballance Amazon. Not sure how much foreign language fluency is required, in a Internet dominated post Brexit economy to be honest.

Bangitintrnet wrote: December 13th, 2022, 3:24 pm

This graph shows the ballance of payment's, which show how dependent the UK is on finance, to ballance import of goods and services.

In and around Newport we have Admiral and Go Compare to ballance Amazon. Not sure how much foreign language fluency is required, in a Internet dominated post Brexit economy to be honest.

Good point. I suspect the answer to your question is very little

That very little bit is probably not in Wales, so why should a Welsh education system, encourage students to piss off elsewhere, when the Welsh economy will be better suited if they stay in Wales?

My feeling is if we agree the Welsh language is important in Wales then something isn't working.

Either the Welsh public don't think its important or the Welsh public do really value Welsh (which many do) but the measures in place are failing - either way the middle class Pontcana set are carrying on speaking Welsh and snaffling the high paid public sector roles requiring Welsh while normal people go about their daily lives struggling to get by in any language.

CathedralCounty wrote: December 15th, 2022, 11:07 am My feeling is if we agree the Welsh language is important in Wales then something isn't working.

Either the Welsh public don't think its important or the Welsh public do really value Welsh (which many do) but the measures in place are failing - either way the middle class Pontcana set are carrying on speaking Welsh and snaffling the high paid public sector roles requiring Welsh while normal people go about their daily lives struggling to get by in any language.

I understand the point you are making, but is it necessarily a bad thing? If you are privately educated in England, your mates from school will find you an extremely well paid job in the city investing working class pension money......

I heard recently of a university graduate who collected trolleys in Sainsburys on a Friday night to help him financially during his studies. He did this in order to better himself, and it did work, because now he has graduated, he is collecting trolleys full time for Waitrose.....

I lived in Pontcanna when S4C was based at Sophia Gardens, and HTV had studios at Pontcanna fields pruducing content for S4C. I owned a 2 bed ground floor flat in a converted Victorian house, which I and my wife paid £25k for. At the time a simular price to a 3 bed property in Newport. The area was did have a high percentage of Welsh speakers, but due to TV production not the Welsh Office at Cathays Park.
There is now a large community of Welsh Speakers around Victoria Park in Cardiff, as those who initially bought flats near work, moved out to buy a do-it-upa further out.

Well there's more Welsh schools opening than ever in SE Wales my granddaughter goes to Welsh nursery and hopefully my grandson.

Wife and myself are new to learning it's very hard the older you get.

I'd say the numbers will be vastly better next time

UPTHEPORT wrote: December 15th, 2022, 12:22 pm Well there's more Welsh schools opening than ever in SE Wales my granddaughter goes to Welsh nursery and hopefully my grandson.

Wife and myself are new to learning it's very hard the older you get.

I'd say the numbers will be vastly better next time

Da iawn up the port.Pob lwc with your learning.
Should I now refer to you as lan y portladd?

UPTHEPORT wrote: December 15th, 2022, 12:22 pm Well there's more Welsh schools opening than ever in SE Wales my granddaughter goes to Welsh nursery and hopefully my grandson.

Wife and myself are new to learning it's very hard the older you get.

I'd say the numbers will be vastly better next time

All good points, but somewhat counter intuitively it’s not working is it? As quickly as young children learn languages they easily forget them if not used or subsumed by other languages - in this case English (my god daughters have all but forgotten their ethnic [mothers] mother tongue [not Welsh] they spoke almost exclusively at home until aged 5 they are pretty much English only now - only the eldest has any real grasp of it).

The main issues are 1) some/many of the children attending Welsh medium primary school don’t then attend Welsh medium high schools, 2) most of South East Wales and large parts of mid/north Wales borderland have only a small % of Welsh speakers - its simply not the language of business or daily life for 70% of people in Wales, even in roles where the ‘compulsory’ job sepc calls for Welsh speakers its likely Welsh isn’t widely used [given 70% of even the Welsh, let alone UK population speak or understand it].

Not a ‘dig’ or a denigration of Welsh just a fact.

CathedralCounty wrote: December 15th, 2022, 3:12 pm

UPTHEPORT wrote: December 15th, 2022, 12:22 pm Well there's more Welsh schools opening than ever in SE Wales my granddaughter goes to Welsh nursery and hopefully my grandson.

Wife and myself are new to learning it's very hard the older you get.

I'd say the numbers will be vastly better next time

All good points, but somewhat counter intuitively it’s not working is it? As quickly as young children learn languages they easily forget them if not used or subsumed by other languages - in this case English (my god daughters have all but forgotten their ethnic [mothers] mother tongue [not Welsh] they spoke almost exclusively at home until aged 5 they are pretty much English only now - only the eldest has any real grasp of it).

The main issues are 1) some/many of the children attending Welsh medium primary school don’t then attend Welsh medium high schools, 2) most of South East Wales and large parts of mid/north Wales borderland have only a small % of Welsh speakers - its simply not the language of business or daily life for 70% of people in Wales, even in roles where the ‘compulsory’ job sepc calls for Welsh speakers its likely Welsh isn’t widely used [given 70% of even the Welsh, let alone UK population speak or understand it].

Not a ‘dig’ or a denigration of Welsh just a fact.

You make many good points and agree than attempts to increase the number of Welsh speakers is not working as well as is intended. Can also understand that the spending of money on the aim is wasted. I'm contented however, that the opportunities are widely available for the majority who wish to learn the language and the desire is high enough amongst enough of the population to keep the language alive even if that means the number doesn't significantly rise above the half mullion mark.
What I don't understand or agree with is your apparent resentment towards what you described as 'Welsh speaking middle class cartel' and the 'middle class Pontcanna set.'
I interpret this as a sign of bitterness on your part. Personally I've never encountered any of these people to whom you refer. My social circle in Newport and Torfaen, of those of us who are able to converse with each other in the language, admittedly only at a very basic level, are certainly not middle class. They are probably better described as RAF!

DeePeeNCAFC wrote: December 13th, 2022, 9:57 am Any figures showing the number of active Welsh speakers are heavily distorted by, what I consider to be, a really restrictive and pointless WG mandate that all children are taught Welsh at school and that GCSE Welsh is compulsory.

They’ve done this at the expense of learning other key languages like French, German and Chinese which are much more important for a career than Welsh is.

My kids all did Welsh GCSE are confused that it was so easy to get a pass that it devalues the whole exam system.

One of the benefits of Welsh being taught from 3-16 is so that children have a consistent language to learn throughout so that they have the chance to continue to develop those language building skills within one language.

Other languages are taught, but when one school does French, another might do German or Spanish. If your child moves school, they might not do French anymore, but will start learning German. At least with Welsh, they have a consistent language to learn throughout their time in compulsory education.