Kids are fluent in an educational understanding rather than conversational sense.
Obviously if the language is spoken at home that changes. As the generations of those taught Welsh at a young age increases, the likelyhood of parents being able to converse with their offspring improves. It's a time thing, but to hear the bulk of the away support singing it at Leicester, suggests that while not fluent, a growing number of fans are comfortable singing in Welsh. That was not the case a decade ago in Newport.

faerun exile wrote: November 15th, 2022, 3:29 pm What I don’t get is that all kids in Wales start learning Welsh from the moment they enter primary school and up to year 11 I think. So over 10 years. Why aren’t kids therefore fluent in it by year 11? Because they are not. Either do it properly so that kids are fluent or not at all in my view.

Can I assume you are talking about English medium schools? Because they most certainly are in Welsh medium schools.

It literally means "Still Here", how much more Newport County can you get?

OLDCROMWELLIAN wrote: November 15th, 2022, 4:01 pm

faerun exile wrote: November 15th, 2022, 3:29 pm What I don’t get is that all kids in Wales start learning Welsh from the moment they enter primary school and up to year 11 I think. So over 10 years. Why aren’t kids therefore fluent in it by year 11? Because they are not. Either do it properly so that kids are fluent or not at all in my view.

Can I assume you are talking about English medium schools? Because they most certainly are in Welsh medium schools.

Yes. My kids went to Marshfield and Bassaleg. I just think after studying it for 10+ years kids should be fluent. Kids in Holland etc seem to be able to converse in English / second language at a very early age so why can’t ours do likewise?
Another thing to consider is that there are a significant number of kids who drop out of Welsh medium schools as they struggle to access the language. The kids then attend English medium schools, are behind their peers from an educational perspective and teachers have to pick up the pieces.

Welsh is an exceptionally difficult language to learn. It is not like English with funny words. The way sentences are constructed is very different to English. And most frustrating of all, mutation means that words often change their spelling and pronunciation depending on the words around them in a sentence. There are many words for "yes" and "no" depending on what you are talking about and so on. I know because I have been trying to learn it for years with only very limited success.
I would not send a child from an English speaking home to a Welsh medium school. It would be too much of an extra burden for many.

Having said that, the teaching of Welsh as a second language in English medium schools is a useful practice I think. Certainly, my grandchildren seem to enjoy it. But remember that many teachers giving Welsh lessons in English medium schools do not speak Welsh fluently themselves and will struggle beyond a certain point. So don't expect too much.

There's a number of reasons why, mainly that most teachers in English medium schools (myself included) aren't fluent Welsh speakers. We need either more training, time to learn or more specialised Welsh teachers. Kids in Holland will be getting lessons from fluent, specialised teachers no doubt. Thankfully, it seems that the teachers training now have a better understanding of Welsh than we did when I trained over a decade ago.

The new curriculum should also see Welsh prioritised more within daily school life. Kids just need to practise it.

90% of the population in the Netherlands speak English so it's no wonder that the kids can speak in English well. Add to that the English language broadcasts easily available to them on TV and social media etc. In Wales less than 30% of people speak Welsh but nearly 100% of the population speak English. Surprisingly the county of Bridgend has the least number of Welsh speakers - 15.6% according to a survey in 2019.

G Guest wrote: November 15th, 2022, 10:28 pm Welsh is an exceptionally difficult language to learn. It is not like English with funny words. The way sentences are constructed is very different to English. And most frustrating of all, mutation means that words often change their spelling and pronunciation depending on the words around them in a sentence. There are many words for "yes" and "no" depending on what you are talking about and so on. I know because I have been trying to learn it for years with only very limited success.
I would not send a child from an English speaking home to a Welsh medium school. It would be too much of an extra burden for many.

Having said that, the teaching of Welsh as a second language in English medium schools is a useful practice I think. Certainly, my grandchildren seem to enjoy it. But remember that many teachers giving Welsh lessons in English medium schools do not speak Welsh fluently themselves and will struggle beyond a certain point. So don't expect too much.

Don't agree with your statement that Welsh is an exceptionally difficult language to learn, though I'm not suggesting it is easy. Personally I haven't found it as difficult as French, although that might have something to do with my different motivation at the various times of learning. What I think is difficult for many learners is the inability to let go off the 'way English sentences are constructed' and thus forming a barrier when learning the Welsh construction which is no more complicated than the English construction, Agree about the frustration of the mutations, which can alter the first letter of certain words in a seemingly baffling array of a long list of circumstances. However, mutations are often forgotten even by those who regard Welsh as there first language, and if you forget to use them you will still be understood. Not sure I follow you about mutations changing words pronunciations, useless you are just referring to that first letter change. Two off my Grandchildren, and many of their friends, from a English speaking home have attended a Welsh medium school for many years without any apparent sign of it being an extra burden for them. I do except however, that it can be for some children and there are some who invariably will drop out and transfer to an English medium school. I'm sure those who start at the earliest possible stage i.e. nursery have the least difficulties. Don't have any official numbers of what the drop out numbers are locally or nationally, and can only speak of my own local primary school observations, which tell me only a handful have transferred in the last eight years.

I do, however, agree with your second paragraph.

Blackandamber wrote: November 15th, 2022, 10:53 pm 90% of the population in the Netherlands speak English so it's no wonder that the kids can speak in English well. Add to that the English language broadcasts easily available to them on TV and social media etc. In Wales less than 30% of people speak Welsh but nearly 100% of the population speak English. Surprisingly the county of Bridgend has the least number of Welsh speakers - 15.6% according to a survey in 2019.

Not surprised by that stat. I would like to see the figures for Bridgend itself. I suspect it would be much higher. Bridgend County includes the towns of Cowbridge and Llantwit Major which are probably two of the most Anglicised and affluent towns in Wales. North Gwent/Monmouthshire would be there as well.

What I don't understand is why do people think that the point of learning a language is to be fluent in speech?
When I was in school (many years ago) learning French, it was to have a basic understanding. It was the same as Maths, you weren't expected to use it frequently after school, just enough to know how you can solve a problem. It allows for further/ self education, if your line of work requires more knowledge.
I remember being told that learning French and German and more reacently Mandarin, were vital for commerce. Has that proved to be the case?

pembsexile wrote: November 16th, 2022, 8:22 am

Blackandamber wrote: November 15th, 2022, 10:53 pm 90% of the population in the Netherlands speak English so it's no wonder that the kids can speak in English well. Add to that the English language broadcasts easily available to them on TV and social media etc. In Wales less than 30% of people speak Welsh but nearly 100% of the population speak English. Surprisingly the county of Bridgend has the least number of Welsh speakers - 15.6% according to a survey in 2019.

Not surprised by that stat. I would like to see the figures for Bridgend itself. I suspect it would be much higher. Bridgend County includes the towns of Cowbridge and Llantwit Major which are probably two of the most Anglicised and affluent towns in Wales. North Gwent/Monmouthshire would be there as well.

Cowbridge and Llantwit Major are in the Vale of Glamorgan. Cowbridge had a grammar school which had links to Oxford, Llantwit Major was major centre for religious study. It's where St. David was educated.

Bangitintrnet wrote: November 16th, 2022, 8:28 am What I don't understand is why do people think that the point of learning a language is to be fluent in speech?
When I was in school (many years ago) learning French, it was to have a basic understanding. It was the same as Maths, you weren't expected to use it frequently after school, just enough to know how you can solve a problem. It allows for further/ self education, if your line of work requires more knowledge.
I remember being told that learning French and German and more reacently Mandarin, were vital for commerce. Has that proved to be the case?

For me I was never a linguist until I reached uni then I only got interested when I started to want to chat up a few international students (yes you've guessed it most of the British ones weren't interested in me! ) - all joking aside whether for romantic purposes or otherwise it does help to be able to at least start a conversation in a foreign language.

As for commerce get your point, but certainly in my firm it helps to have a second language and they do do transfers abroad, equally a lot of investment from China/Japan/other in Wales and UK no harm in having some ability in those languages - could get people ahead in hospitality too a 2nd language helps and you won't get a job as air crew with an airline without at least a smattering of another language - it probably helps in more niche fields like the arts - actors or singers who can speak a 2nd/3rd language get more work and perhaps even more niche military intelligence actively recruit mandarin/Persian/Farsi/other speakers - lots of jobs where its advantageous if not essential.

I don't want to prolong this discussion because we are not discussing football any more. But I would like to point out one thing which is that the whole point of Welsh (and I think other Celtic languages) using mutation is to make speech flow and avoid harsh clashes of sounds. A simple local example is that we say Croseo I Gasnewydd instead of Croseo i Casnewydd thus introducing a soft G sound to follow the harsh " i ". So mutation does change pronunciation as well as the spelling of the word in question.

CathedralCounty wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:50 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: November 16th, 2022, 8:28 am What I don't understand is why do people think that the point of learning a language is to be fluent in speech?
When I was in school (many years ago) learning French, it was to have a basic understanding. It was the same as Maths, you weren't expected to use it frequently after school, just enough to know how you can solve a problem. It allows for further/ self education, if your line of work requires more knowledge.
I remember being told that learning French and German and more reacently Mandarin, were vital for commerce. Has that proved to be the case?

For me I was never a linguist until I reached uni then I only got interested when I started to want to chat up a few international students (yes you've guessed it most of the British ones weren't interested in me! ) - all joking aside whether for romantic purposes or otherwise it does help to be able to at least start a conversation in a foreign language.

As for commerce get your point, but certainly in my firm it helps to have a second language and they do do transfers abroad, equally a lot of investment from China/Japan/other in Wales and UK no harm in having some ability in those languages - could get people ahead in hospitality too a 2nd language helps and you won't get a job as air crew with an airline without at least a smattering of another language - it probably helps in more niche fields like the arts - actors or singers who can speak a 2nd/3rd language get more work and perhaps even more niche military intelligence actively recruit mandarin/Persian/Farsi/other speakers - lots of jobs where its advantageous if not essential.

One of the issues is that where it is essential to have more than one language in a job, it tends to be in the head office of national companies. Therefore youth educated in languages in Wales, are drawn to the big English cities where the head offices are. Likewise aircrew etc. So therefore assisting the very able to stay in Wales has to be a good thing.
A wise man in the 18th century said "A tri-linguist is a person who can speak 3 languages. A bi-linguist is a person who can speak 2 languages. A person who can only speak one language is English"

Bangitintrnet wrote: November 16th, 2022, 12:29 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: November 16th, 2022, 9:50 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: November 16th, 2022, 8:28 am What I don't understand is why do people think that the point of learning a language is to be fluent in speech?
When I was in school (many years ago) learning French, it was to have a basic understanding. It was the same as Maths, you weren't expected to use it frequently after school, just enough to know how you can solve a problem. It allows for further/ self education, if your line of work requires more knowledge.
I remember being told that learning French and German and more reacently Mandarin, were vital for commerce. Has that proved to be the case?

For me I was never a linguist until I reached uni then I only got interested when I started to want to chat up a few international students (yes you've guessed it most of the British ones weren't interested in me! ) - all joking aside whether for romantic purposes or otherwise it does help to be able to at least start a conversation in a foreign language.

As for commerce get your point, but certainly in my firm it helps to have a second language and they do do transfers abroad, equally a lot of investment from China/Japan/other in Wales and UK no harm in having some ability in those languages - could get people ahead in hospitality too a 2nd language helps and you won't get a job as air crew with an airline without at least a smattering of another language - it probably helps in more niche fields like the arts - actors or singers who can speak a 2nd/3rd language get more work and perhaps even more niche military intelligence actively recruit mandarin/Persian/Farsi/other speakers - lots of jobs where its advantageous if not essential.

One of the issues is that where it is essential to have more than one language in a job, it tends to be in the head office of national companies. Therefore youth educated in languages in Wales, are drawn to the big English cities where the head offices are. Likewise aircrew etc. So therefore assisting the very able to stay in Wales has to be a good thing.
A wise man in the 18th century said "A tri-linguist is a person who can speak 3 languages. A bi-linguist is a person who can speak 2 languages. A person who can only speak one language is English"

Well, thanks Bangit...that must prove something