Trying to take a neutral stance on this, mainly because I don’t understand or haven’t read up on the fuller details.

What is clear to me though is that this will make or break NATO. If I recall correctly, NATO was set up after WWII with its main aim to combat the threat, ironically, of the Soviet Union. It’s therefore easy to see why Putin dislikes NATO and sees it as the rest of the world ‘ganging up on’ them.

These paltry sanctions announced by the UK and other western powers (deliberately spelled with a small P) will do nothing. Putin has got the Russian national debt down in recent years so they’re all set to handle a tight economic period. He has already got China on side when he met their President a few months ago, so we now have the equivalent of the West stopping Putin’s pocket money at the same time as he’s carrying out an armed robbery of a local bank, with an even wealthier, powerful and arguably more dangerous benefactor waiting in the wings to help if needed.

If NATO do nothing now they may as well disband, which would suit Putin.

He listens to no one, has already changed the constitutional rules so it’s not easy to oust him and he can remain as President for as long as he likes. Now he’s seeking to change the way the rest of the world can act. Technically because Ukraine aren’t yet part of NATO then there is no automatic military support for them by NATO members. So we’re hanging Ukraine out to dry, because engaging in a war when the rest of the world is rebounding from crippling COVID costs would be foolish, when the Russian winter is at its peak and when we all know that there are a handful of idiots running their countries who would happily dust down the nuclear button ready for a threat to use it.

pembsexile wrote: February 24th, 2022, 11:24 am

PortandSud wrote: February 24th, 2022, 10:59 am

pembsexile wrote: February 24th, 2022, 7:47 am

PortandSud wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 10:24 am The US government is no longer using the word ‘imminent’ in its narrative around the alleged Russian ‘invasion’ of Ukraine, White House spokeswoman Jen Psaki told reporters, on Wednesday, explaining that it was sending an unintended message.


“I used it once. I think others have used that once, and we stopped using it because I think it sent a message that we weren't intending to send."
Politician speak for "We lied!"

You were saying?

They have been saying imminent since the beginning of January.

In this context your use of the word ‘lied’ is unfortunate. Let’s have a look at some ‘lies’.

Russia has been stating for months that it never had any intention of invading Ukraine. Lie
Putin said last week that troops were being pulled back. Lie.
This morning he has said the invasion is needed as a special military operation. Lie.
He claims that the Ukraine has a Nazi element and needs to go. Lie. The Ukraine President is Jewish. What a disgusting slur against the leader of a sovereign country.

There is only one liar in this monstrosity and it isn’t Ukraine or the West. It’s Geopolitics at work and the catalyst for the catastrophe was Putin meeting the Chinese President months ago to ask what his reaction would be. Green light or apathy it seems. The price - I’ll bet the Taiwanese people are very frightened this morning. All because a stupid little man wants to flex his muscles. His words of warning this morning are monstrous. That is about the only truthful thing he has said in this whole sorry debacle.

Good post. Only a fool or delusional idealist in the 'west' can possibly believe Putin's lies. But for how long can he fool his own people with his lies? Lincoln's famed speech of "you can't fool all of the people all of the time" comes to mind. Hopefully that is increasingly true nowadays.

No rexpert, but some informed: C4 Documentary on Putin. Links for me don't work. Allayed with the lunatics KGB/USSR rules. He wants to recreate a Greater Russia, ala Catherine the Great. (ala Hitler). That includes the Crimea, some of Georgia, already invadwds. And South East Ukraine. Which is their econmic heartbeat.

Trump/Putin/ Boris if they were football cards .....

Clearly I was wrong in believing Putin would not invade Ukrainia.

Since the 1960s there has been a balance of fear. We have nuclear weapons, you have nuclear weapons and only a madman would ever use them.

I think Mike is right about Taiwanese people being frightened. Now there is a madman with nuclear weapons they are not alone.

Stan A. Einstein wrote: February 27th, 2022, 10:13 am Clearly I was wrong in believing Putin would not invade Ukrainia.

Since the 1960s there has been a balance of fear. We have nuclear weapons, you have nuclear weapons and only a madman would ever use them.

I think Mike is right about Taiwanese people being frightened. Now there is a madman with nuclear weapons they are not alone.

Brendan, I don’t believe that it is a case of being right or wrong with that lunatic. Until a few days ago I thought he was too wise to invade because he would know the consequences. I was wrong. He is playing ‘poker’. Upping the ante to see our response.

Today, in response to supposed NATO aggression, he has put his Nuclear forces on special alert. The Russian military planners have obviously worked things out in advance. Things are not going all their way. Whilst the ground war, in a tactical sense seems very good so far for Ukraine, it is not too good for the rest of us. He is testing us.

What does a megalomaniac narcissistic lunatic do when things don’t go his way? Blame everybody else of course. Blame Nazi Ukraine, blame the provocative West, blame everyone but himself. The Russian people may hold the key to this problem. He has arrested thousands already. I hope they keep it up, but I fear the next few days as Ukraine fights back, may be the most problematic of all for all of us if he keeps upping the ante. Lessons from history (and the school playground) teach us that you just have to stand up to bullies.

Very true petty the Afghanistan president didn't stick around to fight for his country

Sooner.... hopefully, or later the Russian people will feel empowered to make a difference... As opposed to North Korea the majority of Russian citizens are aware of events.. Putins yes men must surely begin to assemble the seed of controlled erosion of the dictatorship.

It is truly a sad, sad world. If the west and the rest of the world hasn’t had its wake up call yet from the liar Putin, they had better wise up very very quickly. Putin wants nothing less than an extended, greater Russia. Putin sees it as his right to have control over any area in Europe that has a significant Russian population. This includes Ukraine, Chechnya, Georgia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia and any area that has a KievRus Slav minority.

This week he has threatened neutral Finland and Sweden as they look to strengthen their forces in the light of Russian aggression. He has also put his nuclear forces on increased alert. He is testing our resolve.

The only way to deal with bullies is firstly, ignore them and then if that doesn’t work, stand up to them. We have tried ignoring Putin and it hasn’t worked. We have to deal with him now. Ukraine is paying the price for ignoring him. The rest of Eastern Europe may be next. This is our wake up call.

Unfortunately we now have to deal with the liar. Those who say that the sanctions are somehow wrong and we have tried to claim the moral high ground (whatever that means) are just unfortunately 100% wrong. Wrong on every level. Economic, cultural and sporting sanctions are the only way at the moment that we can deal with this lunatic. He will get more and more erratic as things don’t go his way.

Hopefully the Russian people and those within Putin’ inner circle will prevail and see sense. I am not optimistic.

History teaches us that you have to know your adversary. Putin is only interested in Russian culture and power, nothing else. No one else matters. We see that now in Ukraine. He is a physically little man portraying power and majesty and like Trump he has his weaknesses. He wants to go down in history as a great Russian. Unfortunately he has a massive military arsenal at his disposal to help him perform his life mission. He couldn’t care less about the rest of the world. Ridicule. That is what will get to him. Being ridiculed on the world stage, like Trump. He is a big man telling lies in Russia where he has his own way. Most of the rest of the world sees it differently. There will be short term pain. The alternative is too awful to think about.

I think the US Senate are meeting tonight with Zelensky the Ukrainian Prez; over facetime(literally) the whole senate of the USA. You have to think, the only thing can be a call for a 'No Fly Zone'
Only way this could work (Ex RAF, Falklands etc) is incremenatally. First you can't fly over Nuclear Power Stations or 'other' possible military sites. (ie chemical). ....Then you can't fly over exit routes for civilians fleeing the war. Then when one incursion from the Russians happens. Full Blood. Everton fans smashing Millwall, in the fourth round.

Shoot any Russian aircraft down in Ukrakian airspace.

U-Turn Johnson grow a pair.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-n ... gn=organic

Flipping great so he's got even more reason to not give two figs angry

UPTHEPORT wrote: March 7th, 2022, 11:54 am https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-n ... gn=organic

Flipping great so he's got even more reason to not give two figs angry

Where to start. Russian interference in the US 2016 election, etc. Could this possibly associated???

Meanwhile in the real world. An actual American General agreed on Times TV, with me. Bomb the *****. and since then 2 Russian Generals have been offed. U-Turn 3 Jags Johnson has had tea with a Romanian Gymnast, The Sheik of Noman and the dead German barmaid from the second series of Auf Weidersein Pet. God help Ukraine, cause it looks like we aren't.

The sanctions that began in 2014 have had what effect? None.

The head of the UK military gave it up when he said UK citizens shouldn't fight back. Sack the mofo.

BoJo is an appeaser ala Chamberlain.

No. We need to be quite clear about this. The only way that the UK (as part of NATO) could respond militarily is if Russia attacked a NATO state. Ukraine is not part of NATO. The liar Putin knows our hands are tied. Apart from the refugee problem, there is not much we can do at the moment other than:

Continue to attempt to isolate Russia via economic, social and sporting sanctions.
Continue to provide logistical support to Ukraine to help them to fight.
Continue to provide moral support to the Ukrainian people.
Continue to report on the situation on the ground by extensive media coverage.

It will be interesting today to see what the Ukrainian President says when he addresses Parliament at 5pm. He is asking for immediate entry into the EU. That could be a talking point.

I wish Westminster had somehow stopped the illegal migrant crossings so that we could take more genuine refugees. I just don't believe that a person who passes through a series of safe countries to try and make it to our shores because of our benefit/health system and black market for employment should be able to jump the queue and force their way in illegally.

Lost in Willesden wrote: March 5th, 2022, 5:07 am I think the US Senate are meeting tonight with Zelensky the Ukrainian Prez; over facetime(literally) the whole senate of the USA. You have to think, the only thing can be a call for a 'No Fly Zone'
Only way this could work (Ex RAF, Falklands etc) is incremenatally. First you can't fly over Nuclear Power Stations or 'other' possible military sites. (ie chemical). ....Then you can't fly over exit routes for civilians fleeing the war. Then when one incursion from the Russians happens. Full Blood. Everton fans smashing Millwall, in the fourth round.

Shoot any Russian aircraft down in Ukrakian airspace.

U-Turn Johnson grow a pair.

I feel we play the long game and try to out Beta the would be ‘Alpha’ on this one, as someone who was bullied at school I should know there is more than one way to skin a cat and you use the power of a bully against them and let them hang by their own petard – sounds wimpy and cowardly [and there were times when I did snap and clock someone] and admit its not a gung ho approach but it usually/often *works* Putin will trip himself up - I feel truly sorry that Ukraine & her people is caught in the middle of Cold war MKII but we must tread carefully - a nuclear holocaust and subsequent nuclear winter would cause [quite literally] a million times more deaths and suffering than is happening in Ukraine

pembsexile wrote: March 8th, 2022, 10:24 am No. We need to be quite clear about this. The only way that the UK (as part of NATO) could respond militarily is if Russia attacked a NATO state. Ukraine is not part of NATO. The liar Putin knows our hands are tied. Apart from the refugee problem, there is not much we can do at the moment other than:

Continue to attempt to isolate Russia via economic, social and sporting sanctions.
Continue to provide logistical support to Ukraine to help them to fight.
Continue to provide moral support to the Ukrainian people.
Continue to report on the situation on the ground by extensive media coverage.

It will be interesting today to see what the Ukrainian President says when he addresses Parliament at 5pm. He is asking for immediate entry into the EU. That could be a talking point.

I am not sure that's quite accurate Mike. The UK was certainly a member of NATO in1982. That membership did not prevent the UK going to war with Argentina.