English is the most spoken language in the world but only when first and second language speakers are added together.

English is spoken as a first language by 380 million with just over a billion using English as a second language.

Mandarin Chinese is spoken as a first language by 939 million with 199 million as a second language.

So Welsh is doing quite well as a minority language, and the name reverting back to Cymru, will only help not hinder it's use. Unlike the rest of the world we benefit from not having to learn English as a second language

There are Loads of Welsh courses at all levels and are inexpensive….. both online or in class.

Learning a language can aid slowing down dementia and you get a fantastic sense of achieving something.

https://learnwelsh.cymru/

Sorry Cymru C to have sidetracked your discussion. I’ll go back to discussing who was the Better player for us -Mark’s brother Neville Chamberlain or Marco’s brother Paolo Gabbiadini?

Athletico Lovells wrote: March 21st, 2024, 12:51 pm There are Loads of Welsh courses at all levels and are inexpensive….. both online or in class.

Learning a language can aid slowing down dementia and you get a fantastic sense of achieving something.

https://learnwelsh.cymru/

Sorry Cymru C to have sidetracked your discussion. I’ll go back to discussing who was the Better player for us -Mark’s brother Neville Chamberlain or Marco’s brother Paolo Gabbiadini?

Good point on the benefits of learning a second language, however a person living in large swathes of Wales will have very limited use for Welsh (unless they have a burning desire to consume the output of S4C?) but if they go on holiday to [say] Italy or France regularly might be better to learn those instead? a younger/working age person, unless they want a job in the Welsh public sector (not a bad ambition in itself), would open far more doors with the ability to speak/read/understand many other languages [other than Welsh] - again that’s not being 'anti' Welsh language that’s the reality for *most* people in *most* parts of Wales i.e., the 70% of those in Wales who can't/don't/won't speak/read/understand welsh and have no incentive to learn.

I think its for the Welsh language 'lobby' to stop forcing [children in non Welsh speaking areas to learn Welsh]/browbeating/shaming and actually make a serious cogent argument as to why anyone [in a non Welsh speaking area/from a non Welsh speaking background] should learn Welsh and what they will gain from it and clearly that argument has not been made or made poorly - its not a case of [if you live in Wales] 'why wouldn't you want to speak/read/understand Welsh?' rather 'why would I'?

wattsville_boy wrote: March 20th, 2024, 4:49 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: March 20th, 2024, 4:26 pm

Exile 1976 wrote: March 20th, 2024, 3:00 pm For some reason the use of Welsh in Wales really triggers some people. Heaven forbid we have an identity of our own instead of being swallowed into an all encompassing United Kingdom ( obviously by United Kingdom, we all know that means England)


Anyhoo though, back to the game, I thought it was a good little performance from Cymru C

Without getting side-tracked into a wider and more complex debate in this particular case the Welsh FA name change just seems un authentic and gimmicky partly as we managed for 100+ years with the ‘old’ name (albeit with a welsh motto) and partly that the constituency is a broadly majority English speaking one and we don’t need a re-brand to feel any more 'Welsh' - It’s just rather jarring and a bit like 'siop coffi' popping up in Chepstow (a 95%+ English speaking town).

Being Welsh means many things to many people and isn’t just about the language/team supported/political party voted for/location or even heritage of a person it’s a feeling sometimes generational via blood or often by adoption or bit of all those things. There are a lot of people who feel very Welsh but not don't have any Welsh blood or having been born here - some of those people have/will/may yet play for Wales.

...or de waffled - We were no less Welsh before the name change - so... C'mon Wales!

Cymraeg is an equal language to English in Wales. Calling the national side Cymru instead of Wales is merely reverting to what the side would have been called if football had been invented circa 15th century. Cymraeg is the original language of Wales, English a later interloper. I don't speak Cymraeg myself but think calling the national side Cymru strengthens the national identity. But others are allowed to disagree...

Yes quite, without widespread disruption of the Welsh language being used, sometimes by policy, sometimes by simple commerce, our original language is Welsh. I’m just sad I was never taught it when young when it’s easier, if I had I could have enjoyed our culture properly. All strength to those promoting the language.

CathedralCounty wrote: March 21st, 2024, 3:43 pm

Athletico Lovells wrote: March 21st, 2024, 12:51 pm There are Loads of Welsh courses at all levels and are inexpensive….. both online or in class.

Learning a language can aid slowing down dementia and you get a fantastic sense of achieving something.

https://learnwelsh.cymru/

Sorry Cymru C to have sidetracked your discussion. I’ll go back to discussing who was the Better player for us -Mark’s brother Neville Chamberlain or Marco’s brother Paolo Gabbiadini?

Good point on the benefits of learning a second language, however a person living in large swathes of Wales will have very limited use for Welsh (unless they have a burning desire to consume the output of S4C?) but if they go on holiday to [say] Italy or France regularly might be better to learn those instead? a younger/working age person, unless they want a job in the Welsh public sector (not a bad ambition in itself), would open far more doors with the ability to speak/read/understand many other languages [other than Welsh] - again that’s not being 'anti' Welsh language that’s the reality for *most* people in *most* parts of Wales i.e., the 70% of those in Wales who can't/don't/won't speak/read/understand welsh and have no incentive to learn.

I think its for the Welsh language 'lobby' to stop forcing [children in non Welsh speaking areas to learn Welsh]/browbeating/shaming and actually make a serious cogent argument as to why anyone [in a non Welsh speaking area/from a non Welsh speaking background] should learn Welsh and what they will gain from it and clearly that argument has not been made or made poorly - its not a case of [if you live in Wales] 'why wouldn't you want to speak/read/understand Welsh?' rather 'why would I'?

I don't think it's a case of learning one other language than English, though I would agree learning French, German, Italian or Spanish can be more useful for holiday purposes. Of course there's nothing stopping you learning simple phrases for multiple languages and often people are content if you make an attempt at using their mother tongue when visiting their country.

As someone who works within education in Wales, the biggest benefit of children learning Welsh is that they are learning and developing their language skills within one language from the age of 3 to at least 16. There is a reason why children who are brought up in bilingual households find it easier to pick up other languages when they are older.

Most schools decide which modern foreign language they deliver on the availability of teachers with that language. When I was in comp, mine taught French & German, while the other school down the road did Spanish & French. Incidentally, since leaving school, I've not used French or German once. There is no predicting which language would be most useful to a 4-year-old child. You could teach a child Spanish, only for them to never set foot in a Spanish-speaking country their entire life. It's better for them to be able to consistently learn a language that links to the country and culture that they will be learning about and living within.

Anyone who refuses to call Wales 'Cymru' needs to get a grip on their priorities and choose more serious things to get upset about.

wattsville_boy wrote: March 21st, 2024, 10:04 pm

CathedralCounty wrote: March 21st, 2024, 3:43 pm

Athletico Lovells wrote: March 21st, 2024, 12:51 pm There are Loads of Welsh courses at all levels and are inexpensive….. both online or in class.

Learning a language can aid slowing down dementia and you get a fantastic sense of achieving something.

https://learnwelsh.cymru/

Sorry Cymru C to have sidetracked your discussion. I’ll go back to discussing who was the Better player for us -Mark’s brother Neville Chamberlain or Marco’s brother Paolo Gabbiadini?

Good point on the benefits of learning a second language, however a person living in large swathes of Wales will have very limited use for Welsh (unless they have a burning desire to consume the output of S4C?) but if they go on holiday to [say] Italy or France regularly might be better to learn those instead? a younger/working age person, unless they want a job in the Welsh public sector (not a bad ambition in itself), would open far more doors with the ability to speak/read/understand many other languages [other than Welsh] - again that’s not being 'anti' Welsh language that’s the reality for *most* people in *most* parts of Wales i.e., the 70% of those in Wales who can't/don't/won't speak/read/understand welsh and have no incentive to learn.

I think its for the Welsh language 'lobby' to stop forcing [children in non Welsh speaking areas to learn Welsh]/browbeating/shaming and actually make a serious cogent argument as to why anyone [in a non Welsh speaking area/from a non Welsh speaking background] should learn Welsh and what they will gain from it and clearly that argument has not been made or made poorly - its not a case of [if you live in Wales] 'why wouldn't you want to speak/read/understand Welsh?' rather 'why would I'?

I don't think it's a case of learning one other language than English, though I would agree learning French, German, Italian or Spanish can be more useful for holiday purposes. Of course there's nothing stopping you learning simple phrases for multiple languages and often people are content if you make an attempt at using their mother tongue when visiting their country.

Quiet right but most people (once they hit adulthood) have neither the time, money nor inclination to learn languages - sad in itself as think the UK is likely among the lowest for having people with an ability to speak a second language which is a whole other debate.

DT1892 wrote: March 21st, 2024, 11:10 pm As someone who works within education in Wales, the biggest benefit of children learning Welsh is that they are learning and developing their language skills within one language from the age of 3 to at least 16. There is a reason why children who are brought up in bilingual households find it easier to pick up other languages when they are older.

Most schools decide which modern foreign language they deliver on the availability of teachers with that language. When I was in comp, mine taught French & German, while the other school down the road did Spanish & French. Incidentally, since leaving school, I've not used French or German once. There is no predicting which language would be most useful to a 4-year-old child. You could teach a child Spanish, only for them to never set foot in a Spanish-speaking country their entire life. It's better for them to be able to consistently learn a language that links to the country and culture that they will be learning about and living within.

Anyone who refuses to call Wales 'Cymru' needs to get a grip on their priorities and choose more serious things to get upset about.

Interesting and informed thoughts on languages - for me I hated languages at school but post school I wanted to learn a few languages which I did at evening classes to at least attempt to embarrass myself in a few other languages and have since married someone who is bilingual and have learnt (OK attempted) to learn her language so I can at least understand when she is cross with me.

On the name change debate - I'm not being accused of this as wasn’t me who said it but it’s not about 'refusing' its about being mildly miffed at an unnecessary, gimmicky re brand - there are a lot of other priorities in Welsh football than a name change (a stubborn inability of Welsh domestic teams to progress in European club competitions, decent playing surfaces, lack of referees & coaches, etc, etc) - to most people in Wales 'Wales' is 'Wales' because their first/only language is English and they are/feel no less Welsh because of that and I think we’re all, yes including me, pathologizing this a bit too much - the chant last night was 'Waay-alls' not 'Cymru' partly because around 70%+ of the crowd don’t speak Welsh but mainly because 'Wales' lends itself better to a chant/battle cry.

I learnt a bit of Welsh because I married a Welsh speaker from a Welsh speaking family and I wanted to know what my mother in law was saying about me.
But on a more serious and football related note and specifically last night's match although it was "Wales" being chanted, I believe the vast majority of the crowd were able and proud to sing the Welsh national anthem and at one point, completely spontaneously. It is this sort of moment that makes you realise what nation and culture you are in and even if it only relates to football to be proud to be so.

Chris Davis wrote: March 22nd, 2024, 10:46 am I learnt a bit of Welsh because I married a Welsh speaker from a Welsh speaking family and I wanted to know what my mother in law was saying about me.
But on a more serious and football related note and specifically last night's match although it was "Wales" being chanted, I believe the vast majority of the crowd were able and proud to sing the Welsh national anthem and at one point, completely spontaneously. It is this sort of moment that makes you realise what nation and culture you are in and even if it only relates to football to be proud to be so.

Thinking back to games only 10 years ago, there was much less singing in Welsh/Cymraeg, than last night.
Chanting is still dominated by English, but singing anthems in Welsh/Cymraeg. Both are forms of belonging, of showing your commitment or investment in something worthwhile, to me at least.

The national anthem, Calon Lan, Yma o hyd. All were sang last night, and I would say a large majority of those present knew the words to these songs.

DT1892 wrote: March 21st, 2024, 11:10 pm As someone who works within education in Wales, the biggest benefit of children learning Welsh is that they are learning and developing their language skills within one language from the age of 3 to at least 16. There is a reason why children who are brought up in bilingual households find it easier to pick up other languages when they are older.

Most schools decide which modern foreign language they deliver on the availability of teachers with that language. When I was in comp, mine taught French & German, while the other school down the road did Spanish & French. Incidentally, since leaving school, I've not used French or German once. There is no predicting which language would be most useful to a 4-year-old child. You could teach a child Spanish, only for them to never set foot in a Spanish-speaking country their entire life. It's better for them to be able to consistently learn a language that links to the country and culture that they will be learning about and living within.

Anyone who refuses to call Wales 'Cymru' needs to get a grip on their priorities and choose more serious things to get upset about.

Good points made. I was taught French in school but wasn't really interested in being taught it. I got a CSE pass in it (barely) and had no need for it after leaving school as I've never been to France or encountered French people in my line of work. However when my mother retired from Midwifery she decided she wanted to brush up on her French and enrolled in college to re-do her French O level (GCE to be pedantic). When she was preparing for her exam I had to read her some questions from her book and she gave me a suitable response. It was around 30 years since I'd last used French but I found that I was pronouncing words correctly and understood my mother's replies.

I've tried learning Welsh a few times and I think these things are difficult if you're not practicing in your everyday life. I had to learn some Italian when I was Nursing in London because we had Italian patients coming across for surgery. I didn't need to know much as you could make motions for some things (or cheat and use the Italian/English dictionary), but a greeting, 'how are you?' and 'pain/discomfort', 'belch/flatulence' and 'nausea/vomiting' were essential.

I have no children but I'm glad Welsh is taught in schools and regret it wasn't available when I was attending. Just under half my nephews/niece were taught Welsh in school. Their parents weren't Welsh speakers, didn't learn and I think the kids were didn't necessarily see the point in learning Welsh at the time. I think with Wales/Cymru football success they understand it more. But sometimes it's about leaving Wales and seeing how Welsh people are seen outside of Wales.

For me the rebrand is an essential part of identity. It demands a respect for us as a country and the use of our language on a par with other languages of the world. It's the same argument as using Türkiye...