I think we should be a nation of sanctuary to genuine asylum seekers coming from Ukraine or anywhere where there's war/famine etc but why should we take England's illegal migrants when they can't say who they are? We can't even have a sensible conversation about it now because it's such a toxic subject.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65832755
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
2Wales has always taken migrants from England in the form of retirees or those moving from expensive flats in cities to costal towns. That's why Wales has a population older than England.
With regard to Afgan migrants most interpreters that helped uk forces have now been housed in the Copthorne hotel at Culverhouse cross Cardiff. They were very much under threat at home as they were seen as aiding the UK forces. Economically occupying a country to train it's population how to defend themselves is very expensive. Much more so than renting a complete hotel.
The Strady Park hotel will be used mostly for women and children who are younger than the general population. Not sure where the comment "who can't tell you where they are from" comes from, unless it was a right leaning newspaper.
With regard to Afgan migrants most interpreters that helped uk forces have now been housed in the Copthorne hotel at Culverhouse cross Cardiff. They were very much under threat at home as they were seen as aiding the UK forces. Economically occupying a country to train it's population how to defend themselves is very expensive. Much more so than renting a complete hotel.
The Strady Park hotel will be used mostly for women and children who are younger than the general population. Not sure where the comment "who can't tell you where they are from" comes from, unless it was a right leaning newspaper.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
3My forepeneth-Mrs cathedral is an immigrant who works funkin hard for the NHS the UK/Wales NEEDS immigrants BUT me & Mrs cathedral did it right and went through very stressful and VERY expensive hoops so we could marry and she could settle here, to not have proper procedures followed and to not strictly enforce rules is an insult to Mrs cathedral & the many thousands of legal immigrants making a vital contribution to this country.
Indeed it’s the legal immigrants who feel very strongly about this and the “concerned about illegal immigration = racist thug” is a complete misrepresentation.
Indeed it’s the legal immigrants who feel very strongly about this and the “concerned about illegal immigration = racist thug” is a complete misrepresentation.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
4Completely agree. The UK Govt has allowed the system to be played by anyone who fancies coming here without going through the proper channels.CathedralCounty wrote: June 24th, 2023, 4:27 pm My forepeneth-Mrs cathedral is an immigrant who works funkin hard for the NHS the UK/Wales NEEDS immigrants BUT me & Mrs cathedral did it right and went through very stressful and VERY expensive hoops so we could marry and she could settle here, to not have proper procedures followed and to not strictly enforce rules is an insult to Mrs cathedral & the many thousands of legal immigrants making a vital contribution to this country.
Indeed it’s the legal immigrants who feel very strongly about this and the “concerned about illegal immigration = racist thug” is a complete misrepresentation.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
5Illegal immigration is the same as anything that is illegal, and anything illegal is breaking the system that makes life easier for everyone else.CathedralCounty wrote: June 24th, 2023, 4:27 pm My forepeneth-Mrs cathedral is an immigrant who works funkin hard for the NHS the UK/Wales NEEDS immigrants BUT me & Mrs cathedral did it right and went through very stressful and VERY expensive hoops so we could marry and she could settle here, to not have proper procedures followed and to not strictly enforce rules is an insult to Mrs cathedral & the many thousands of legal immigrants making a vital contribution to this country.
Indeed it’s the legal immigrants who feel very strongly about this and the “concerned about illegal immigration = racist thug” is a complete misrepresentation.
However as with the Windrush generation, just because public opinion shifts doesn't make it wrong for people to settle, particularly in Wales where there are skill shortages.
People are people, just as the pride slogan love is just love.
As a country there is a tendency for people to blame others if they are having problems. In so doing there is a tenancy to ignore the bigger picture that you mentioned, I.E. the NHS and other public bodies have always required the skills of others, as homegrown youngsters tend to migrate to bigger cities outside Wales for their education/living. Hence Wales leading the way with free prescriptions as a way of reducing demand on services (doesn't help with operations or waiting times). Wales has more nurses and less surgeons than elsewhere due to recruitment issues.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
6It's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration
This government has failed totally they are just talking about the boat crossings but fail to mention they have failed in so many ways with over stayers
To me personally migration is fantastic for the country and the right fail to tell you that migrants bring far more to the country than they take out
But that's not headline grabbing is it
This government has failed totally they are just talking about the boat crossings but fail to mention they have failed in so many ways with over stayers
To me personally migration is fantastic for the country and the right fail to tell you that migrants bring far more to the country than they take out
But that's not headline grabbing is it
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
7The problem to me is there is no legal route to claim asylum in the UK, couple that with a Goverment that wants to process applications as slow as possible and you have a recipe for illegal entry.
Conversely if you know who is coming into the country, then if asylum is granted, link people together, IE Afgan interpreters who are multi linguistic to people who need language help. Someone has to clean toilets etc, and once talked through what is required and when, and given time, language skills improve more rewarding jobs will open up. Even if its simple community work such as planting trees and taking a water bowser around until they are established, it provides a benefit for all the community.
Much better than holding people for years, not allowing them to work, or train, or anything, just like caged animals going mad, and for what?
Conversely if you know who is coming into the country, then if asylum is granted, link people together, IE Afgan interpreters who are multi linguistic to people who need language help. Someone has to clean toilets etc, and once talked through what is required and when, and given time, language skills improve more rewarding jobs will open up. Even if its simple community work such as planting trees and taking a water bowser around until they are established, it provides a benefit for all the community.
Much better than holding people for years, not allowing them to work, or train, or anything, just like caged animals going mad, and for what?
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
8Let me answer your question. To return anyone you need to know where they came from. If they don't tell you they can't be returned can they?Chepstow'sFine wrote: June 24th, 2023, 9:02 am I think we should be a nation of sanctuary to genuine asylum seekers coming from Ukraine or anywhere where there's war/famine etc but why should we take England's illegal migrants when they can't say who they are? We can't even have a sensible conversation about it now because it's such a toxic subject.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-65832755
I pass no comment on the morals of the matter. People emigrate to make a better life for themselves. As for stopping people from leaving poor countries for rich ones, trying to stop that is like pissing into the wind.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
9It's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration well yes and no - immigration is nectar to the neo liberal capitalist classes (upper middle to upper class executive/shareholding class) i.e., the old 'right wing' because it inevitably equals cheap labour and [perceived] 'harder' workers or at least those willing to do dirty or hard to recruit for jobs and the 'old left' were traditionally against it for those very reasons, I personally hate the narrative around this (and not saying you are stoking this) - I'm centre left and pro immigration BUT want a no nonsense approach to illegal immigration (so have no issues with migrants being put up on camp beds in tents for example).UPTHEPORT wrote: June 25th, 2023, 2:29 pm It's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration
This government has failed totally they are just talking about the boat crossings but fail to mention they have failed in so many ways with over stayers
To me personally migration is fantastic for the country and the right fail to tell you that migrants bring far more to the country than they take out
But that's not headline grabbing is it
There are nuances of course but when you have young men coming over with not even a pretense of claiming asylum and simply walking out of immigration accommodation never to be seen again something is wrong - frankly the French in particular are taking the piazza and don't lets not kid ourselves that the rest of the utopia that is the 'EU' is any more pro immigration they are more than happy for us Brits footing the bill (for the record I voted remain but the EU is not a panacea).
One point on this is that while there is small but significant elite (and their cheerleaders) who dismiss the UK as a cess pit of racism and every other form of discrimination - we oddly still have 1000's of people who risk life and limb to come her so we can't be that bad! (OK us being the only major English speaking country in Europe helps).
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
10I'm glad you're centre left, pro immigration and voted remain. As am I, as did I. Maybe more left but certainly not hard left in my case.CathedralCounty wrote: June 26th, 2023, 9:25 amIt's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration well yes and no - immigration is nectar to the neo liberal capitalist classes (upper middle to upper class executive/shareholding class) i.e., the old 'right wing' because it inevitably equals cheap labour and [perceived] 'harder' workers or at least those willing to do dirty or hard to recruit for jobs and the 'old left' were traditionally against it for those very reasons, I personally hate the narrative around this (and not saying you are stoking this) - I'm centre left and pro immigration BUT want a no nonsense approach to illegal immigration (so have no issues with migrants being put up on camp beds in tents for example).UPTHEPORT wrote: June 25th, 2023, 2:29 pm It's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration
This government has failed totally they are just talking about the boat crossings but fail to mention they have failed in so many ways with over stayers
To me personally migration is fantastic for the country and the right fail to tell you that migrants bring far more to the country than they take out
But that's not headline grabbing is it
There are nuances of course but when you have young men coming over with not even a pretense of claiming asylum and simply walking out of immigration accommodation never to be seen again something is wrong - frankly the French in particular are taking the piazza and don't lets not kid ourselves that the rest of the utopia that is the 'EU' is any more pro immigration they are more than happy for us Brits footing the bill (for the record I voted remain but the EU is not a panacea).
One point on this is that while there is small but significant elite (and their cheerleaders) who dismiss the UK as a cess pit of racism and every other form of discrimination - we oddly still have 1000's of people who risk life and limb to come her so we can't be that bad! (OK us being the only major English speaking country in Europe helps).
However I should point out that France has granted nearly twice as many asylum applications as has the UK. It is a myth that Britain takes more refugees than other countries.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
11centre left, pro immigration and voted remain wasn't mentioned to gain favour (and would say I respect the 'leave' vote as that is democracy folks) just to put me in perspective and debunk the myth 'concerned about immigration = right wing [fascist!]' - not saying you said I did but wasn't suggesting the UK took more/less people but that 1) France has taken about £500 million from the UK government to [help] stop people crossing the channel and seemingly not done much - their security forces seemed more intent on battering seven bells out of Liverpool fans last summer 2) France is a far larger and more sparsely populated country than the UK with a [theoretical] ability to absorb far more people than the UK is among the most densely populated European countries (of major countries only Netherlands & Belgium rank higher - France is way down) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_ ... _countries.Stan A. Einstein wrote: June 26th, 2023, 12:12 pmI'm glad you're centre left, pro immigration and voted remain. As am I, as did I. Maybe more left but certainly not hard left in my case.CathedralCounty wrote: June 26th, 2023, 9:25 amIt's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration well yes and no - immigration is nectar to the neo liberal capitalist classes (upper middle to upper class executive/shareholding class) i.e., the old 'right wing' because it inevitably equals cheap labour and [perceived] 'harder' workers or at least those willing to do dirty or hard to recruit for jobs and the 'old left' were traditionally against it for those very reasons, I personally hate the narrative around this (and not saying you are stoking this) - I'm centre left and pro immigration BUT want a no nonsense approach to illegal immigration (so have no issues with migrants being put up on camp beds in tents for example).UPTHEPORT wrote: June 25th, 2023, 2:29 pm It's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration
This government has failed totally they are just talking about the boat crossings but fail to mention they have failed in so many ways with over stayers
To me personally migration is fantastic for the country and the right fail to tell you that migrants bring far more to the country than they take out
But that's not headline grabbing is it
There are nuances of course but when you have young men coming over with not even a pretense of claiming asylum and simply walking out of immigration accommodation never to be seen again something is wrong - frankly the French in particular are taking the piazza and don't lets not kid ourselves that the rest of the utopia that is the 'EU' is any more pro immigration they are more than happy for us Brits footing the bill (for the record I voted remain but the EU is not a panacea).
One point on this is that while there is small but significant elite (and their cheerleaders) who dismiss the UK as a cess pit of racism and every other form of discrimination - we oddly still have 1000's of people who risk life and limb to come her so we can't be that bad! (OK us being the only major English speaking country in Europe helps).
However I should point out that France has granted nearly twice as many asylum applications as has the UK. It is a myth that Britain takes more refugees than other countries.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
12If population density had anything to do with it, Australia could take in the world. As could Canada, USA, Brazil, China and God knows where else. The problem is that much of every countries landmass can only support a tiny population. You simply can't put 50,000 people into the Massif Central, or in the Alps.CathedralCounty wrote: June 26th, 2023, 1:56 pmcentre left, pro immigration and voted remain wasn't mentioned to gain favour (and would say I respect the 'leave' vote as that is democracy folks) just to put me in perspective and debunk the myth 'concerned about immigration = right wing [fascist!]' - not saying you said I did but wasn't suggesting the UK took more/less people but that 1) France has taken about £500 million from the UK government to [help] stop people crossing the channel and seemingly not done much - their security forces seemed more intent on battering seven bells out of Liverpool fans last summer 2) France is a far larger and more sparsely populated country than the UK with a [theoretical] ability to absorb far more people than the UK is among the most densely populated European countries (of major countries only Netherlands & Belgium rank higher - France is way down) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_ ... _countries.Stan A. Einstein wrote: June 26th, 2023, 12:12 pmI'm glad you're centre left, pro immigration and voted remain. As am I, as did I. Maybe more left but certainly not hard left in my case.CathedralCounty wrote: June 26th, 2023, 9:25 amIt's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration well yes and no - immigration is nectar to the neo liberal capitalist classes (upper middle to upper class executive/shareholding class) i.e., the old 'right wing' because it inevitably equals cheap labour and [perceived] 'harder' workers or at least those willing to do dirty or hard to recruit for jobs and the 'old left' were traditionally against it for those very reasons, I personally hate the narrative around this (and not saying you are stoking this) - I'm centre left and pro immigration BUT want a no nonsense approach to illegal immigration (so have no issues with migrants being put up on camp beds in tents for example).UPTHEPORT wrote: June 25th, 2023, 2:29 pm It's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration
This government has failed totally they are just talking about the boat crossings but fail to mention they have failed in so many ways with over stayers
To me personally migration is fantastic for the country and the right fail to tell you that migrants bring far more to the country than they take out
But that's not headline grabbing is it
There are nuances of course but when you have young men coming over with not even a pretense of claiming asylum and simply walking out of immigration accommodation never to be seen again something is wrong - frankly the French in particular are taking the piazza and don't lets not kid ourselves that the rest of the utopia that is the 'EU' is any more pro immigration they are more than happy for us Brits footing the bill (for the record I voted remain but the EU is not a panacea).
One point on this is that while there is small but significant elite (and their cheerleaders) who dismiss the UK as a cess pit of racism and every other form of discrimination - we oddly still have 1000's of people who risk life and limb to come her so we can't be that bad! (OK us being the only major English speaking country in Europe helps).
However I should point out that France has granted nearly twice as many asylum applications as has the UK. It is a myth that Britain takes more refugees than other countries.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
13Well indeed most immigrants gravitate to where others of their identity are living and/or where there is work usually - already crowded cities.Stan A. Einstein wrote: June 26th, 2023, 6:44 pmIf population density had anything to do with it, Australia could take in the world. As could Canada, USA, Brazil, China and God knows where else. The problem is that much of every countries landmass can only support a tiny population. You simply can't put 50,000 people into the Massif Central, or in the Alps.CathedralCounty wrote: June 26th, 2023, 1:56 pmcentre left, pro immigration and voted remain wasn't mentioned to gain favour (and would say I respect the 'leave' vote as that is democracy folks) just to put me in perspective and debunk the myth 'concerned about immigration = right wing [fascist!]' - not saying you said I did but wasn't suggesting the UK took more/less people but that 1) France has taken about £500 million from the UK government to [help] stop people crossing the channel and seemingly not done much - their security forces seemed more intent on battering seven bells out of Liverpool fans last summer 2) France is a far larger and more sparsely populated country than the UK with a [theoretical] ability to absorb far more people than the UK is among the most densely populated European countries (of major countries only Netherlands & Belgium rank higher - France is way down) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_and_ ... _countries.Stan A. Einstein wrote: June 26th, 2023, 12:12 pmI'm glad you're centre left, pro immigration and voted remain. As am I, as did I. Maybe more left but certainly not hard left in my case.CathedralCounty wrote: June 26th, 2023, 9:25 amIt's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration well yes and no - immigration is nectar to the neo liberal capitalist classes (upper middle to upper class executive/shareholding class) i.e., the old 'right wing' because it inevitably equals cheap labour and [perceived] 'harder' workers or at least those willing to do dirty or hard to recruit for jobs and the 'old left' were traditionally against it for those very reasons, I personally hate the narrative around this (and not saying you are stoking this) - I'm centre left and pro immigration BUT want a no nonsense approach to illegal immigration (so have no issues with migrants being put up on camp beds in tents for example).UPTHEPORT wrote: June 25th, 2023, 2:29 pm It's a right wing thing isn't it to talk up the bad about migration
This government has failed totally they are just talking about the boat crossings but fail to mention they have failed in so many ways with over stayers
To me personally migration is fantastic for the country and the right fail to tell you that migrants bring far more to the country than they take out
But that's not headline grabbing is it
There are nuances of course but when you have young men coming over with not even a pretense of claiming asylum and simply walking out of immigration accommodation never to be seen again something is wrong - frankly the French in particular are taking the piazza and don't lets not kid ourselves that the rest of the utopia that is the 'EU' is any more pro immigration they are more than happy for us Brits footing the bill (for the record I voted remain but the EU is not a panacea).
One point on this is that while there is small but significant elite (and their cheerleaders) who dismiss the UK as a cess pit of racism and every other form of discrimination - we oddly still have 1000's of people who risk life and limb to come her so we can't be that bad! (OK us being the only major English speaking country in Europe helps).
However I should point out that France has granted nearly twice as many asylum applications as has the UK. It is a myth that Britain takes more refugees than other countries.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
14Some great, balanced opinions as always from the wise old sages.
Re: You can't have open borders and a benefits system (including the NHS)
15I hope your'e not being sarcastic because I think we CAN have good debates on here and yes sometimes people's views conflict - we may be a small forum but we produce some good 'content'.Chepstow'sFine wrote: June 27th, 2023, 12:31 pm Some great, balanced opinions as always from the wise old sages.
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