Serious question

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phil crump

Serious question

Postby phil crump » March 24th, 2020, 4:21 pm

Now that the chances of actually having any revenue from home games is slim has anybody had any thoughts on how our players and staff will be paid.i know league looking at paying out early and there should be money in bank plus this emergency elf fund. Just asking as a fans owned club as we’re so often reminded of what do we do. Just don’t want to be here in 12 months with thread after thread demanding to know where our money has gone as us fans own the club
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Amberexile

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Re: Serious question

Postby Amberexile » March 24th, 2020, 4:29 pm

Can we claim 80%, subject to limits from the government for any of our staff?
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phil crump

Re: Serious question

Postby phil crump » March 24th, 2020, 4:40 pm

Honestly don’t know just a sad crazy time for everyone
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Risca_Exile

Re: Serious question

Postby Risca_Exile » March 24th, 2020, 7:58 pm

Amberexile wrote:Can we claim 80%, subject to limits from the government for any of our staff?

I understand that's what FGR are doing.

https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/forest-green-rovers-use-wage-3979490
Last edited by Risca_Exile on March 24th, 2020, 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amberexile

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Re: Serious question

Postby Amberexile » March 24th, 2020, 8:26 pm

Risca_Exile wrote:
Amberexile wrote:Can we claim 80%, subject to limits from the government for any of our staff?

I understand that's what FGR are doing.


I'd assume some of our board will be doing this for their own businesses so will become knowledgeable of what is available.
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Stan A. Einstein

Re: Serious question

Postby Stan A. Einstein » March 24th, 2020, 9:36 pm

Amberexile wrote:
Risca_Exile wrote:
Amberexile wrote:Can we claim 80%, subject to limits from the government for any of our staff?

I understand that's what FGR are doing.


I'd assume some of our board will be doing this for their own businesses so will become knowledgeable of what is available.


Firstly I don't know whether professional footballers have contracts for employment or of employment. So whether they or the club can claim the government subsidy is a moot point.

What I do know is that the maximum payment in the UK under the present emergency is £2,500 per month. Which as they are only employed until 30th June would suggest even if they can claim it will be only about £7500.
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neilcork68

Re: Serious question

Postby neilcork68 » March 24th, 2020, 9:45 pm

Hasnt the EFL given clubs money to let them continue trading recently ?
They have paid the TV monies early and offered interest free loans too.
Whether that money gets to players or the owners 'trouser it' before it gets that far is another debate... There will be some owners out there who make money out of this disaster that's for sure.
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Amberexile

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Re: Serious question

Postby Amberexile » March 25th, 2020, 11:09 am

Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amberexile wrote:
Risca_Exile wrote:
Amberexile wrote:Can we claim 80%, subject to limits from the government for any of our staff?

I understand that's what FGR are doing.


I'd assume some of our board will be doing this for their own businesses so will become knowledgeable of what is available.


Firstly I don't know whether professional footballers have contracts for employment or of employment. So whether they or the club can claim the government subsidy is a moot point.

What I do know is that the maximum payment in the UK under the present emergency is £2,500 per month. Which as they are only employed until 30th June would suggest even if they can claim it will be only about £7500.


Does it help to know that -
There is case law establishing that a professional footballer is an employee going back as far as 1910
The Premier League provides a standard proforma contract for players, known as form 20
The EFL regulations say that all players must be contracted in the equivalent of that form and repeatedly refer to a contract of employment within the players section of their regulations
Contracted players have previously used employment tribunals to settle disputes?

It is not just the players that we need to be concerned about, there are plenty of other employees that will have contracts of employment that last beyond 30th of June and many of our players are midway through 2 year contracts. Added to that, we have to pay players who are out of contract on 30th June for the month of July if they have not found another club.
The £2,500 maximum per month is reported to be per person. I don't know how many employees we have but the amount will tot up if all of them are eligible to be taken into account and every little helps.
I'm sure the EFL will be onto this and helping out our board and others clubs in establishing what is possible.
However, like every other of their recent announcements, some real clarity from the government would be useful.

On the flip side, we have only 4 remaining home games this season. How much net revenue will we lose by not paying those 4 games and what other revenue will we miss out on by not playing?
So if we can claim this money, is it possible that the government compensation would add up to more than the lost revenue?
Then of course there is the prickly question of when do you sell season tickets for 2020/21.
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UPTHEPORT

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The Republic of Malpas

Re: Serious question

Postby UPTHEPORT » March 25th, 2020, 11:27 am

I can tell the Club now as a season ticket holder i don't want any refund this season i hope most season ticket holders feel the same that will save Clubs money
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lowandhard

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Peoples Republic of Malpas

Re: Serious question

Postby lowandhard » March 25th, 2020, 12:45 pm

UPTHEPORT wrote:I can tell the Club now as a season ticket holder i don't want any refund this season i hope most season ticket holders feel the same that will save Clubs money


Same here mate . If any games played behind closed doors it would be a nice gesture to extend iPlayer to st holders.
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Amberexile

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Sheffield

Re: Serious question

Postby Amberexile » March 27th, 2020, 12:17 am

Bail out for EFL clubs: Radical move to put players on SABBATICAL with Government help to pay wages on the cards amid coronavirus outbreak

Seems the EFL have had similar thoughts

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sport ... wages.html
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Stan A. Einstein

Re: Serious question

Postby Stan A. Einstein » March 27th, 2020, 8:47 am

Amberexile wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amberexile wrote:
Risca_Exile wrote:
Amberexile wrote:Can we claim 80%, subject to limits from the government for any of our staff?

I understand that's what FGR are doing.


I'd assume some of our board will be doing this for their own businesses so will become knowledgeable of what is available.


Firstly I don't know whether professional footballers have contracts for employment or of employment. So whether they or the club can claim the government subsidy is a moot point.

What I do know is that the maximum payment in the UK under the present emergency is £2,500 per month. Which as they are only employed until 30th June would suggest even if they can claim it will be only about £7500.


Does it help to know that -
There is case law establishing that a professional footballer is an employee going back as far as 1910
The Premier League provides a standard proforma contract for players, known as form 20
The EFL regulations say that all players must be contracted in the equivalent of that form and repeatedly refer to a contract of employment within the players section of their regulations
Contracted players have previously used employment tribunals to settle disputes?

It is not just the players that we need to be concerned about, there are plenty of other employees that will have contracts of employment that last beyond 30th of June and many of our players are midway through 2 year contracts. Added to that, we have to pay players who are out of contract on 30th June for the month of July if they have not found another club.
The £2,500 maximum per month is reported to be per person. I don't know how many employees we have but the amount will tot up if all of them are eligible to be taken into account and every little helps.
I'm sure the EFL will be onto this and helping out our board and others clubs in establishing what is possible.
However, like every other of their recent announcements, some real clarity from the government would be useful.

On the flip side, we have only 4 remaining home games this season. How much net revenue will we lose by not paying those 4 games and what other revenue will we miss out on by not playing?
So if we can claim this money, is it possible that the government compensation would add up to more than the lost revenue?
Then of course there is the prickly question of when do you sell season tickets for 2020/21.


Not really.

In 1910 there was a maximum wage. Also there was no right of employees not to be unfairly dismissed. Finally Employment Tribunals can be used not only for unfair dismissal but also for breach of contract. Wrongful dismissal as opposed to unfair dismissal. I would be virtually certain that all Premier League and Championship players are self employed. And think it far more likely than not that all professional footballers are likewise self employed.
One of the problems lay people have with law is that they forget it is fluid. There is case law going only as far back as the 1970's that a man could not rape his wife. Thank God we have moved on from that one.

As for the pro forma contracts you speak of. I have not seen them. So my comments are in the alternative. If there is a clause in those contracts dealing with a national emergency stating what should happen in the event of the season being curtailed or suspended I suspect that would be adhered to, subject to 'force majeure' arguments. If there is no such clause then the courts could be asked to rule

My own view is that whatever happens the lawyers will win. We always do. :grin:
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Amberexile

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Re: Serious question

Postby Amberexile » March 27th, 2020, 11:26 am

Stan A. Einstein wrote:Not really.

In 1910 there was a maximum wage. Also there was no right of employees not to be unfairly dismissed. Finally Employment Tribunals can be used not only for unfair dismissal but also for breach of contract. Wrongful dismissal as opposed to unfair dismissal. I would be virtually certain that all Premier League and Championship players are self employed. And think it far more likely than not that all professional footballers are likewise self employed.
One of the problems lay people have with law is that they forget it is fluid. There is case law going only as far back as the 1970's that a man could not rape his wife. Thank God we have moved on from that one.

As for the pro forma contracts you speak of. I have not seen them. So my comments are in the alternative. If there is a clause in those contracts dealing with a national emergency stating what should happen in the event of the season being curtailed or suspended I suspect that would be adhered to, subject to 'force majeure' arguments. If there is no such clause then the courts could be asked to rule

My own view is that whatever happens the lawyers will win. We always do. :grin:


I agree that things move on. So I've done a bit of digging and found that the pro forma contract is now Form 15. The current version can be found in the handbook which can be downloaded here - https://www.premierleague.com/publications

Oliver McCann of Taylors also made some interesting points regarding players' contracts here - http://www.taylors.co.uk/news/newsitem059.htm

I certainly believe that the lawyers could milk this for all it's worth should the clubs seek to use the furloughed employees scheme for players and the government seek to dispute whether they are employees or as you believe self employed.
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Stan A. Einstein

Re: Serious question

Postby Stan A. Einstein » March 27th, 2020, 11:35 am

Amberexile wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:Not really.

In 1910 there was a maximum wage. Also there was no right of employees not to be unfairly dismissed. Finally Employment Tribunals can be used not only for unfair dismissal but also for breach of contract. Wrongful dismissal as opposed to unfair dismissal. I would be virtually certain that all Premier League and Championship players are self employed. And think it far more likely than not that all professional footballers are likewise self employed.
One of the problems lay people have with law is that they forget it is fluid. There is case law going only as far back as the 1970's that a man could not rape his wife. Thank God we have moved on from that one.

As for the pro forma contracts you speak of. I have not seen them. So my comments are in the alternative. If there is a clause in those contracts dealing with a national emergency stating what should happen in the event of the season being curtailed or suspended I suspect that would be adhered to, subject to 'force majeure' arguments. If there is no such clause then the courts could be asked to rule

My own view is that whatever happens the lawyers will win. We always do. :grin:


I agree that things move on. So I've done a bit of digging and found that the pro forma contract is now Form 15. The current version can be found in the handbook which can be downloaded here - https://www.premierleague.com/publications

Oliver McCann of Taylors also made some interesting points regarding players' contracts here - http://www.taylors.co.uk/news/newsitem059.htm

I certainly believe that the lawyers could milk this for all it's worth should the clubs seek to use the furloughed employees scheme for players and the government seek to dispute whether they are employees or as you believe self employed.


With respect to self employed I don't know however any high earner invariably finds that you can avoid a lot of tax.

To me the obvious solution is to mediate and suspend the contract. I can't see this crisis ending until the late summer. In those circumstances it seems to me that the ideal solution would be to play out the League season and the Cups through what would have been season 20/21 and all get back to normal in August 2021.

In any crisis there are always war profiteers. Not just lawyers. As far as I'm concerned they are filth.
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Amberexile

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Sheffield

Re: Serious question

Postby Amberexile » March 27th, 2020, 1:19 pm

Stan A. Einstein wrote:
Amberexile wrote:
Stan A. Einstein wrote:Not really.

In 1910 there was a maximum wage. Also there was no right of employees not to be unfairly dismissed. Finally Employment Tribunals can be used not only for unfair dismissal but also for breach of contract. Wrongful dismissal as opposed to unfair dismissal. I would be virtually certain that all Premier League and Championship players are self employed. And think it far more likely than not that all professional footballers are likewise self employed.
One of the problems lay people have with law is that they forget it is fluid. There is case law going only as far back as the 1970's that a man could not rape his wife. Thank God we have moved on from that one.

As for the pro forma contracts you speak of. I have not seen them. So my comments are in the alternative. If there is a clause in those contracts dealing with a national emergency stating what should happen in the event of the season being curtailed or suspended I suspect that would be adhered to, subject to 'force majeure' arguments. If there is no such clause then the courts could be asked to rule

My own view is that whatever happens the lawyers will win. We always do. :grin:


I agree that things move on. So I've done a bit of digging and found that the pro forma contract is now Form 15. The current version can be found in the handbook which can be downloaded here - https://www.premierleague.com/publications

Oliver McCann of Taylors also made some interesting points regarding players' contracts here - http://www.taylors.co.uk/news/newsitem059.htm

I certainly believe that the lawyers could milk this for all it's worth should the clubs seek to use the furloughed employees scheme for players and the government seek to dispute whether they are employees or as you believe self employed.


With respect to self employed I don't know however any high earner invariably finds that you can avoid a lot of tax.

To me the obvious solution is to mediate and suspend the contract. I can't see this crisis ending until the late summer. In those circumstances it seems to me that the ideal solution would be to play out the League season and the Cups through what would have been season 20/21 and all get back to normal in August 2021.

In any crisis there are always war profiteers. Not just lawyers. As far as I'm concerned they are filth.


I think a common approach needs to be taken across the EFL. Suspending contracts is one possible solution but individual clubs going it alone will inevitably run into problems such as loan players and transfer windows which can be accommodated more easily with a common solution.
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