I'm a fan of this competition but acknowledge the views and criticism of the fans from practically every club who oppose it.

For me, the bigger picture is that, one day, this will be seen to have helped the English and Welsh national teams because how else are talented youngsters going to get any gametime and improve? I get the argument that PL teams shouldn't horde the best talent by nicking players from EFL academies and then not playing them in the first team. But the stakes and money at the top are so high and add in that managers can't afford to gamble by playing a homegrown 18yo when it's easier to spend £30M on Johnny Foreigner who they know will produce the goods.

The future of our international teams relies on giving talented youth a chance and this competition is currently the best way.

The way our lower league and non-league teams are being run (almost always losing money, some going bust or close to it) means our game isn't quite the envy of other countries any longer. I'd have no problem with the County U18 team playing in the Welsh league if it gives them better match practice,, and equally if Man Utd U18s want to join non-league it can only help raise standards.

I can't see how any players potential international future depends of whether or not they play Chelsea Under-21s once a season. Clubs played their reserves/kids in this tournament in the early rounds before the EFL sold out. It was part of the reason they wanted to reform it. Much easier way to develop young players is to set a number of academy players in the matchday squad, limit the squad number allowed for Under-23s or allow an extra place/free substitution of academy players on the bench for the first team.

I'd much rather see us play Cwmbran Town twice a season than be within 5 division of Man United's kids.

DeePeeNCAFC wrote:I'm a fan of this competition but acknowledge the views and criticism of the fans from practically every club who oppose it.

For me, the bigger picture is that, one day, this will be seen to have helped the English and Welsh national teams because how else are talented youngsters going to get any gametime and improve? I get the argument that PL teams shouldn't horde the best talent by nicking players from EFL academies and then not playing them in the first team. But the stakes and money at the top are so high and add in that managers can't afford to gamble by playing a homegrown 18yo when it's easier to spend £30M on Johnny Foreigner who they know will produce the goods.

The future of our international teams relies on giving talented youth a chance and this competition is currently the best way.

The way our lower league and non-league teams are being run (almost always losing money, some going bust or close to it) means our game isn't quite the envy of other countries any longer. I'd have no problem with the County U18 team playing in the Welsh league if it gives them better match practice,, and equally if Man Utd U18s want to join non-league it can only help raise standards.

"Helping the national team" is also the same line those charming folks at the WRU use. They'd join non-league and before you know it their Premier League reserve teams would be playing in the Football League. Give them an inch.

I had fears beforehand but IMHO the competition will have helped knock on the head the idea of Premier Division clubs in L2, if that was ever the plan.

DeePeeNCAFC wrote: For me, the bigger picture is that, one day, this will be seen to have helped the English and Welsh national teams

Funnily enough, the same justification was given for introducing the Premiership in the early 90s. Cynics said it had nothing to do with improving the achievements of the national teams and everything to do with making member clubs of that new division richer.

Only one of those things has happened in the intervening two-and-a-half decades. Would you like to guess which?

It's quite clear the Premier League has become one big selfish cash cow so very few talented youngsters will get any game time. Managers will always (with just a few exceptions) get the cheque book out and buy a player rather than promote a young lad from within. Good English, Welsh etc youngsters won't get a game unless they leave the PL and play lower league so internation teams are suffering.

I know a lot of fans are outraged, scared maybe at the thought of Man Utd B team or U21s playing in the league. Personally I can't see a problem with that, they would be 'just another team' albeit with less history but probably more talent and standards in the lower leagues would rise.

DeePeeNCAFC wrote: I know a lot of fans are outraged, scared maybe at the thought of Man Utd B team or U21s playing in the league. Personally I can't see a problem with that, they would be 'just another team' albeit with less history but probably more talent and standards in the lower leagues would rise.

Maybe I'm old, or maybe just less in thrall to the Premiership, but I can't see the attraction of playing games in near-empty stadia like we did the other night, or home games with virtually zero away fans (see photo here for example) when we could play full senior sides with decent followings and at least a veneer of the competition being an even contest.

We'll be at Bradford this weekend, in front of a five-figure crowd. It wasn't very long ago that they themselves were a top-tier side, and maybe they one day will be again - certainly they (like us) are able to dream. Far better for there to be genuine movement between the higher and lower leagues and real competition between senior sides than for us to be reduced to the status of willing supplicants to the inexorable rise of the Premiership and having to make do with the scraps falling from their table, doffing our cap and being grateful for the odd game against their academies.

Kairdiff Exile - why do you think it's still a threat to L2? Doesn't fewer than 300 turning up for Brighton U21 v County in the format's third season prove the opposite?

And if U21 sides ever did wind up in L2, how would relegation be administered?

George Street-Bridge wrote:Kairdiff Exile - why do you think it's still a threat to L2? Doesn't fewer than 300 turning up for Brighton U21 v County in the format's third season prove the opposite?

I think it's a threat because even though fans are demonstrably not interested, the boards of Div 3 / Div 4 clubs have shown that they don't care about that fact as long as they're bribed with enough money. That's why they voted to continue the Spotafan Trophy format even after the #BTeamBoycott showed that it wasn't what the paying public wanted - boards had their faces turned by the promise of cash from the Football League to cover any losses, and the promise of an enlarged prize fund given by Premiership teams.

The question you have to ask is why Premiership teams are doing it. You can believe (as DeePeeNCAFC and others do) that it's because they want their youngsters to get competitive game time to help their development and to help our national teams. But if that were the case, they could just loan more of those kids out to Div 3 / Div 4 sides without needing to interfere in a competition that had existed perfectly happily for 30 years. Which is why I take the view (maybe cynically, maybe not) that the real reason for the Premiership's interest is because they want to plant the seed of B Teams in the hope that one day (maybe in ten or twenty years' time) they can finally get what they want - B Teams in the lower leagues and a closed-shop Premiership with no promotion or relegation.

I think the "helping the national teams" suggestion is total BS. But on the bribery thing, you're not comparing like with like. Half the teams in the Trophy play only three games in total; which is a far cry from 46, and L2 clubs would need bribing with absurd sums to abandon gate money on that level.

George Street-Bridge wrote:I think the "helping the national teams" suggestion is total BS. But on the bribery thing, you're not comparing like with like. Half the teams in the Trophy play only three games in total; which is a far cry from 46, and L2 clubs would need bribing with absurd sums to abandon gate money on that level.

I'm not saying they'd do it in the same way. But if they're given the chance, I'm sure they'll find a way of some sort. Maybe it'd be that (as with Bury and maybe Macclesfield), the lower leagues are faced mid-season with an intractable problem and the Premiership offer to help by offsetting the losses to clubs of losing gate income in exchange for allowing B Teams in future years. Or maybe they offer a deal of an enlarged lower league with B Teams and an enlarged prize pot in exchange for no promotion/relegation to the Premiership, knowing that once the change is made they can pull funding ten years down the line.

To draw an analogy, it's like the Tories and NHS privatisation. They'll always flat-out deny they want it, and they'd never be so stupid as to bring forward one big piece of legislation which would enact it because they know there'd be uproar. So the way they do it is gradually - piece by piece, year by year, establishing the principle, getting people used to the idea and gradually doing more and more of it until they've got what they want. *

Anyway, that'll be my last word on the issue for now at least - other commitments tonight and tomorrow mean I won't be checking the board until next week!

* Apologies for introducing a political element to the discussion. My intention isn't to open up a debate on NHS privatisation, but just to draw an analogy which I hope is instructive and helpful, even to those who have a different view of the issue.

Maybe someone else will pick up the baton!

Sorry, but I honestly think the scenarios are getting more and more far-fetched. And would Premier Division clubs really want 40-odd games a year for U21s, getting lumps kicked out of them by the likes of Mansfield Town?

I think the original concern was not about U21s in League Two, but a full-on B team, potentially including international players and potential future ones.

Ok. Close your eyes to the progress of the national teams for a moment. Just exactly who do you think will be playing for Wales, England etc in 5 years time?

Let's face it, Man It's U21s are more sustainable and will offer more good football than Macclesfield can ever hope to do. Repeat the same for Clelsea U21s v Leyton Orient, Notts Forest U21s v Mansfield or his help us, Swansea U21s v Newport County.

The argument's the same whatever level