Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 7:35 am

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 9:51 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 3:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 2:31 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:50 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:32 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:00 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 11:07 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 8:47 am

...

The financial conduct authority is basically looking for scams such as pyramid schemes and the like being used under a trust banner. I would say that is why as a Trust we could have a community share issue to raise capital, but we couldn't purchase shares in the County as the trust owned that business, and while businesses buy their own shares from their profits, its not the same to raise capital from the trust membership by buying shares, as fans might think it is an investment.

...

It is a matter of public record that the trust bought shares in the club with the money from the Community Share issue.

That might be the case, but what you're not considering is can they directly buy shares in the club?

IMO the answer to that is likely to be no, as they can raise capital via community shares, that don't have a company linked to them, and therefore no requirement for tax or liability in paying back creditors.

To me that's why the club had little actual debt, as its owner was a trust that couldn't get a loan or raise capital. The club as a business could probably only get a business overdraft set against guaranteed income such as the EFL and Premiership £1 million.

Well it absolutely is the case and in my opinion there is nothing to stop them from doing so now other than Hj lacking the desire to sell them more shares. We did after all pass a resolution at the last AGM to allow more shares to be allocated but the club has yet to do so.

I think you have a problem understanding the concept of debt. The club has always carried debt and always will, The club had debt before it was owned by the Trust, had debt while owned by the Trust and will have debt into the future now that it is no longer owned by the Trust.

The club did borrow money from the bank while Trust owned, both the 2020 and 2021 accounts show Bank borrowing of exactly £50,000. The club could have issued shares to raise capital. It was more a lack of the desire to do these things rather than being prevented from doing so. However, had they done so, I doubt things would have worked out much different.

The concept of debt in relation to loss is important. Companies short of funds will use every opportunity including the overdraft up to the maximum. So 900k of loss on the 30 June could be a small profit on the 30 July after our TV money comes in. Likewise season ticket loss is not a loss in real terms as it is what we sell! All of which is why you can have the same loss appearing year after year, as the cut off point of the accounts dictates wether a loss or small profit occurs.

You clearly don't understand double entry book keeping.

EDIT: If as you suggest, EFL money is due during July, the accounts for the period to 30th June will show the payment from the previous year in them. If you move the accounting year forward a month, the payment made in July this year will appear in them but the payment made in July last year will drop off the back end so the end result is the same. Each year's accounts will include one year's worth of EFL payments. A loss is a loss, a debt is a debt.

But we know that during covid, payments were brought forward as there was no income. It didn't therefore mean that there would be a next payment due, because it had already been paid.

So, so far you have mentioned debts of £100k in the accounts that you can find...... I've just found you a £1millon.

I have also asked you about accrued expenses? What might these be? Could it be related?

And for the sake of ballance can you also attempt to calculate how much of the loss would be due to season ticket sales etc.? These being included as a debt, due to them being a service paid up front, but not received until the final game of the following season.

I will be grateful therefore for some answers please.......

I have no idea what happened during the Covid period so no idea what payments you think were brought forward.

To the best of my knowledge I haven't mentioned £100k. I have mentioned the same £50k debt in 2 different years so maybe you are mistaking the same £50k in both years'accounts as being separate amounts.

As I remember it from a long time ago, the treatment of season ticket sales in accrual accounting terms should be as follows - When we sell a season ticket, it is not included in our revenue at the time of the sale. The way it is treated in the accounts is that the amount is debited to our bank or cash account and a credit entry is made to deferred revenue (or similarly named account) as both Cash/Bank and deferred revenue (as a current liability) are both Balance Sheet items, this will have zero impact on profit and loss but is a liability (i.e. debt) that will be included in the Creditors section of the Balance Sheet being balanced by the cash at bank.
Then as each match is played, the relevant amount (usually 1/23rd of the season ticket price) is debited to deferred revenue and credited to Revenue. It is at this point that the profit from each match represented by season ticket sales will flow through. This method is used to ensure that profit is recognised at the correct time.

Now for the guesswork, deferred revenue and accrued expenses are very similar beasts. In simple terms, deferred revenue is something you have been paid for but not yet delivered and accrued expenses are things you have received but not yet been billed/paid for thus both are current liabilities as in the near future you have to deliver the goods or services you have been paid for and you have to pay for the goods or services you have received. I suspect that in our Balance Sheet, the season ticket sales are being shown in accrued expenses but can't be certain

I hope that helps but as I said, it is many years (over 40) since I studied accountancy making me by no means an expert and somebody else on this messageboard will surely be able to explain this better than I have.

Thank you, a detailed and knowledgable explanation.

So at 30th of June it's likely that season ticket sales is making up half of the annual loss, as none of them would have been credited to revenue at that point?

....

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 11:22 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 7:35 am

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 9:51 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 3:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 2:31 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:50 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:32 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:00 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 11:07 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 8:47 am

...

The financial conduct authority is basically looking for scams such as pyramid schemes and the like being used under a trust banner. I would say that is why as a Trust we could have a community share issue to raise capital, but we couldn't purchase shares in the County as the trust owned that business, and while businesses buy their own shares from their profits, its not the same to raise capital from the trust membership by buying shares, as fans might think it is an investment.

...

It is a matter of public record that the trust bought shares in the club with the money from the Community Share issue.

That might be the case, but what you're not considering is can they directly buy shares in the club?

IMO the answer to that is likely to be no, as they can raise capital via community shares, that don't have a company linked to them, and therefore no requirement for tax or liability in paying back creditors.

To me that's why the club had little actual debt, as its owner was a trust that couldn't get a loan or raise capital. The club as a business could probably only get a business overdraft set against guaranteed income such as the EFL and Premiership £1 million.

Well it absolutely is the case and in my opinion there is nothing to stop them from doing so now other than Hj lacking the desire to sell them more shares. We did after all pass a resolution at the last AGM to allow more shares to be allocated but the club has yet to do so.

I think you have a problem understanding the concept of debt. The club has always carried debt and always will, The club had debt before it was owned by the Trust, had debt while owned by the Trust and will have debt into the future now that it is no longer owned by the Trust.

The club did borrow money from the bank while Trust owned, both the 2020 and 2021 accounts show Bank borrowing of exactly £50,000. The club could have issued shares to raise capital. It was more a lack of the desire to do these things rather than being prevented from doing so. However, had they done so, I doubt things would have worked out much different.

The concept of debt in relation to loss is important. Companies short of funds will use every opportunity including the overdraft up to the maximum. So 900k of loss on the 30 June could be a small profit on the 30 July after our TV money comes in. Likewise season ticket loss is not a loss in real terms as it is what we sell! All of which is why you can have the same loss appearing year after year, as the cut off point of the accounts dictates wether a loss or small profit occurs.

You clearly don't understand double entry book keeping.

EDIT: If as you suggest, EFL money is due during July, the accounts for the period to 30th June will show the payment from the previous year in them. If you move the accounting year forward a month, the payment made in July this year will appear in them but the payment made in July last year will drop off the back end so the end result is the same. Each year's accounts will include one year's worth of EFL payments. A loss is a loss, a debt is a debt.

But we know that during covid, payments were brought forward as there was no income. It didn't therefore mean that there would be a next payment due, because it had already been paid.

So, so far you have mentioned debts of £100k in the accounts that you can find...... I've just found you a £1millon.

I have also asked you about accrued expenses? What might these be? Could it be related?

And for the sake of ballance can you also attempt to calculate how much of the loss would be due to season ticket sales etc.? These being included as a debt, due to them being a service paid up front, but not received until the final game of the following season.

I will be grateful therefore for some answers please.......

I have no idea what happened during the Covid period so no idea what payments you think were brought forward.

To the best of my knowledge I haven't mentioned £100k. I have mentioned the same £50k debt in 2 different years so maybe you are mistaking the same £50k in both years'accounts as being separate amounts.

As I remember it from a long time ago, the treatment of season ticket sales in accrual accounting terms should be as follows - When we sell a season ticket, it is not included in our revenue at the time of the sale. The way it is treated in the accounts is that the amount is debited to our bank or cash account and a credit entry is made to deferred revenue (or similarly named account) as both Cash/Bank and deferred revenue (as a current liability) are both Balance Sheet items, this will have zero impact on profit and loss but is a liability (i.e. debt) that will be included in the Creditors section of the Balance Sheet being balanced by the cash at bank.
Then as each match is played, the relevant amount (usually 1/23rd of the season ticket price) is debited to deferred revenue and credited to Revenue. It is at this point that the profit from each match represented by season ticket sales will flow through. This method is used to ensure that profit is recognised at the correct time.

Now for the guesswork, deferred revenue and accrued expenses are very similar beasts. In simple terms, deferred revenue is something you have been paid for but not yet delivered and accrued expenses are things you have received but not yet been billed/paid for thus both are current liabilities as in the near future you have to deliver the goods or services you have been paid for and you have to pay for the goods or services you have received. I suspect that in our Balance Sheet, the season ticket sales are being shown in accrued expenses but can't be certain

I hope that helps but as I said, it is many years (over 40) since I studied accountancy making me by no means an expert and somebody else on this messageboard will surely be able to explain this better than I have.

Thank you, a detailed and knowledgable explanation.

So at 30th of June it's likely that season ticket sales is making up half of the annual loss, as none of them would have been credited to revenue at that point?

....

Let's stop there because there is little point reading on from there until we get the P&L position right.

The season ticket sales treatment does not impact the profit and loss account. As of 30th June it is wholly a balance sheet transaction.

The only way I can see that it could impact on the profit and loss in a season is if the accounting treatment changed from cash accounting to accrual accounting for that season. However if that was the case, the impact would balance out somewhat in the following season being a second consecutive seasons under accrual accounting.

So if in one year you account for season ticket sales as revenue and in the following year you accrue them, with all other things being equal, you will have a higher profit in the first year and a lower profit in the second year. BUT if you continue with accrual accounting in the third year, your profit will return to normal.

So it may be possible to explain away some of our loss in 2021 by saying that we took the season ticket revenue in 2020 and have now corrected that. That may be the case and it would be helpful if the Board had ever come out and given such an explanation of how they recorded a £1,2million loss in that year's accounts. And while it would call into question the performance of our financial management, accountancy advice and auditing process, it would be a one-off hit in one set of accounts.

However, they have also reported a loss of £913k in 2022. If we accept the cash accounting/accrual accounting explanation for part of the £1,2million loss in 2021. The loss in the following year has just become even bigger failure in comparison. If this is correct, the financial position of the club was far worse than we were told last June and we should be even more worried about our future.

The thing is we can;t be certain because we have never had a reasonable explanation of how things went so horribly wrong so quickly, we have never been walked through the declining financial health of the club from 2020 to 2023 and until we do get this, all we can do is speculate based on the small amount of information we have some of which appears to be inaccurate resulting in some people believing the fraud office should be involved.

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 12:42 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 11:22 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 7:35 am

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 9:51 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 3:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 2:31 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:50 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:32 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:00 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 11:07 am

It is a matter of public record that the trust bought shares in the club with the money from the Community Share issue.

That might be the case, but what you're not considering is can they directly buy shares in the club?

IMO the answer to that is likely to be no, as they can raise capital via community shares, that don't have a company linked to them, and therefore no requirement for tax or liability in paying back creditors.

To me that's why the club had little actual debt, as its owner was a trust that couldn't get a loan or raise capital. The club as a business could probably only get a business overdraft set against guaranteed income such as the EFL and Premiership £1 million.

Well it absolutely is the case and in my opinion there is nothing to stop them from doing so now other than Hj lacking the desire to sell them more shares. We did after all pass a resolution at the last AGM to allow more shares to be allocated but the club has yet to do so.

I think you have a problem understanding the concept of debt. The club has always carried debt and always will, The club had debt before it was owned by the Trust, had debt while owned by the Trust and will have debt into the future now that it is no longer owned by the Trust.

The club did borrow money from the bank while Trust owned, both the 2020 and 2021 accounts show Bank borrowing of exactly £50,000. The club could have issued shares to raise capital. It was more a lack of the desire to do these things rather than being prevented from doing so. However, had they done so, I doubt things would have worked out much different.

The concept of debt in relation to loss is important. Companies short of funds will use every opportunity including the overdraft up to the maximum. So 900k of loss on the 30 June could be a small profit on the 30 July after our TV money comes in. Likewise season ticket loss is not a loss in real terms as it is what we sell! All of which is why you can have the same loss appearing year after year, as the cut off point of the accounts dictates wether a loss or small profit occurs.

You clearly don't understand double entry book keeping.

EDIT: If as you suggest, EFL money is due during July, the accounts for the period to 30th June will show the payment from the previous year in them. If you move the accounting year forward a month, the payment made in July this year will appear in them but the payment made in July last year will drop off the back end so the end result is the same. Each year's accounts will include one year's worth of EFL payments. A loss is a loss, a debt is a debt.

But we know that during covid, payments were brought forward as there was no income. It didn't therefore mean that there would be a next payment due, because it had already been paid.

So, so far you have mentioned debts of £100k in the accounts that you can find...... I've just found you a £1millon.

I have also asked you about accrued expenses? What might these be? Could it be related?

And for the sake of ballance can you also attempt to calculate how much of the loss would be due to season ticket sales etc.? These being included as a debt, due to them being a service paid up front, but not received until the final game of the following season.

I will be grateful therefore for some answers please.......

I have no idea what happened during the Covid period so no idea what payments you think were brought forward.

To the best of my knowledge I haven't mentioned £100k. I have mentioned the same £50k debt in 2 different years so maybe you are mistaking the same £50k in both years'accounts as being separate amounts.

As I remember it from a long time ago, the treatment of season ticket sales in accrual accounting terms should be as follows - When we sell a season ticket, it is not included in our revenue at the time of the sale. The way it is treated in the accounts is that the amount is debited to our bank or cash account and a credit entry is made to deferred revenue (or similarly named account) as both Cash/Bank and deferred revenue (as a current liability) are both Balance Sheet items, this will have zero impact on profit and loss but is a liability (i.e. debt) that will be included in the Creditors section of the Balance Sheet being balanced by the cash at bank.
Then as each match is played, the relevant amount (usually 1/23rd of the season ticket price) is debited to deferred revenue and credited to Revenue. It is at this point that the profit from each match represented by season ticket sales will flow through. This method is used to ensure that profit is recognised at the correct time.

Now for the guesswork, deferred revenue and accrued expenses are very similar beasts. In simple terms, deferred revenue is something you have been paid for but not yet delivered and accrued expenses are things you have received but not yet been billed/paid for thus both are current liabilities as in the near future you have to deliver the goods or services you have been paid for and you have to pay for the goods or services you have received. I suspect that in our Balance Sheet, the season ticket sales are being shown in accrued expenses but can't be certain

I hope that helps but as I said, it is many years (over 40) since I studied accountancy making me by no means an expert and somebody else on this messageboard will surely be able to explain this better than I have.

Thank you, a detailed and knowledgable explanation.

So at 30th of June it's likely that season ticket sales is making up half of the annual loss, as none of them would have been credited to revenue at that point?

....

Let's stop there because there is little point reading on from there until we get the P&L position right.

The season ticket sales treatment does not impact the profit and loss account. As of 30th June it is wholly a balance sheet transaction.

The only way I can see that it could impact on the profit and loss in a season is if the accounting treatment changed from cash accounting to accrual accounting for that season. However if that was the case, the impact would balance out somewhat in the following season being a second consecutive seasons under accrual accounting.

So if in one year you account for season ticket sales as revenue and in the following year you accrue them, with all other things being equal, you will have a higher profit in the first year and a lower profit in the second year. BUT if you continue with accrual accounting in the third year, your profit will return to normal.

So it may be possible to explain away some of our loss in 2021 by saying that we took the season ticket revenue in 2020 and have now corrected that. That may be the case and it would be helpful if the Board had ever come out and given such an explanation of how they recorded a £1,2million loss in that year's accounts. And while it would call into question the performance of our financial management, accountancy advice and auditing process, it would be a one-off hit in one set of accounts.

However, they have also reported a loss of £913k in 2022. If we accept the cash accounting/accrual accounting explanation for part of the £1,2million loss in 2021. The loss in the following year has just become even bigger failure in comparison. If this is correct, the financial position of the club was far worse than we were told last June and we should be even more worried about our future.

The thing is we can;t be certain because we have never had a reasonable explanation of how things went so horribly wrong so quickly, we have never been walked through the declining financial health of the club from 2020 to 2023 and until we do get this, all we can do is speculate based on the small amount of information we have some of which appears to be inaccurate resulting in some people believing the fraud office should be involved.

Precisely, mismanagement and fraud have been mentioned because we know there were problems, but we cannot see them in the accounts. Therefore we cannot categorically say that when Nick Igoe said there was no evidence of fraud, that he was party to hiding something. Its much more likely with a trust owned club, that can't just bail itself out, that the debts are elsewhere, because we have used rental agreements to spread the annual costs over several budgets.

Look at the other clubs, most making an average £2 million loss. Do you believe that they haven't had the issue of £1 million revenue taken away to deal with?

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 1:27 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 12:42 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 11:22 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 7:35 am

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 9:51 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 3:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 2:31 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:50 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:32 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:00 pm

That might be the case, but what you're not considering is can they directly buy shares in the club?

IMO the answer to that is likely to be no, as they can raise capital via community shares, that don't have a company linked to them, and therefore no requirement for tax or liability in paying back creditors.

To me that's why the club had little actual debt, as its owner was a trust that couldn't get a loan or raise capital. The club as a business could probably only get a business overdraft set against guaranteed income such as the EFL and Premiership £1 million.

Well it absolutely is the case and in my opinion there is nothing to stop them from doing so now other than Hj lacking the desire to sell them more shares. We did after all pass a resolution at the last AGM to allow more shares to be allocated but the club has yet to do so.

I think you have a problem understanding the concept of debt. The club has always carried debt and always will, The club had debt before it was owned by the Trust, had debt while owned by the Trust and will have debt into the future now that it is no longer owned by the Trust.

The club did borrow money from the bank while Trust owned, both the 2020 and 2021 accounts show Bank borrowing of exactly £50,000. The club could have issued shares to raise capital. It was more a lack of the desire to do these things rather than being prevented from doing so. However, had they done so, I doubt things would have worked out much different.

The concept of debt in relation to loss is important. Companies short of funds will use every opportunity including the overdraft up to the maximum. So 900k of loss on the 30 June could be a small profit on the 30 July after our TV money comes in. Likewise season ticket loss is not a loss in real terms as it is what we sell! All of which is why you can have the same loss appearing year after year, as the cut off point of the accounts dictates wether a loss or small profit occurs.

You clearly don't understand double entry book keeping.

EDIT: If as you suggest, EFL money is due during July, the accounts for the period to 30th June will show the payment from the previous year in them. If you move the accounting year forward a month, the payment made in July this year will appear in them but the payment made in July last year will drop off the back end so the end result is the same. Each year's accounts will include one year's worth of EFL payments. A loss is a loss, a debt is a debt.

But we know that during covid, payments were brought forward as there was no income. It didn't therefore mean that there would be a next payment due, because it had already been paid.

So, so far you have mentioned debts of £100k in the accounts that you can find...... I've just found you a £1millon.

I have also asked you about accrued expenses? What might these be? Could it be related?

And for the sake of ballance can you also attempt to calculate how much of the loss would be due to season ticket sales etc.? These being included as a debt, due to them being a service paid up front, but not received until the final game of the following season.

I will be grateful therefore for some answers please.......

I have no idea what happened during the Covid period so no idea what payments you think were brought forward.

To the best of my knowledge I haven't mentioned £100k. I have mentioned the same £50k debt in 2 different years so maybe you are mistaking the same £50k in both years'accounts as being separate amounts.

As I remember it from a long time ago, the treatment of season ticket sales in accrual accounting terms should be as follows - When we sell a season ticket, it is not included in our revenue at the time of the sale. The way it is treated in the accounts is that the amount is debited to our bank or cash account and a credit entry is made to deferred revenue (or similarly named account) as both Cash/Bank and deferred revenue (as a current liability) are both Balance Sheet items, this will have zero impact on profit and loss but is a liability (i.e. debt) that will be included in the Creditors section of the Balance Sheet being balanced by the cash at bank.
Then as each match is played, the relevant amount (usually 1/23rd of the season ticket price) is debited to deferred revenue and credited to Revenue. It is at this point that the profit from each match represented by season ticket sales will flow through. This method is used to ensure that profit is recognised at the correct time.

Now for the guesswork, deferred revenue and accrued expenses are very similar beasts. In simple terms, deferred revenue is something you have been paid for but not yet delivered and accrued expenses are things you have received but not yet been billed/paid for thus both are current liabilities as in the near future you have to deliver the goods or services you have been paid for and you have to pay for the goods or services you have received. I suspect that in our Balance Sheet, the season ticket sales are being shown in accrued expenses but can't be certain

I hope that helps but as I said, it is many years (over 40) since I studied accountancy making me by no means an expert and somebody else on this messageboard will surely be able to explain this better than I have.

Thank you, a detailed and knowledgable explanation.

So at 30th of June it's likely that season ticket sales is making up half of the annual loss, as none of them would have been credited to revenue at that point?

....

Let's stop there because there is little point reading on from there until we get the P&L position right.

The season ticket sales treatment does not impact the profit and loss account. As of 30th June it is wholly a balance sheet transaction.

The only way I can see that it could impact on the profit and loss in a season is if the accounting treatment changed from cash accounting to accrual accounting for that season. However if that was the case, the impact would balance out somewhat in the following season being a second consecutive seasons under accrual accounting.

So if in one year you account for season ticket sales as revenue and in the following year you accrue them, with all other things being equal, you will have a higher profit in the first year and a lower profit in the second year. BUT if you continue with accrual accounting in the third year, your profit will return to normal.

So it may be possible to explain away some of our loss in 2021 by saying that we took the season ticket revenue in 2020 and have now corrected that. That may be the case and it would be helpful if the Board had ever come out and given such an explanation of how they recorded a £1,2million loss in that year's accounts. And while it would call into question the performance of our financial management, accountancy advice and auditing process, it would be a one-off hit in one set of accounts.

However, they have also reported a loss of £913k in 2022. If we accept the cash accounting/accrual accounting explanation for part of the £1,2million loss in 2021. The loss in the following year has just become even bigger failure in comparison. If this is correct, the financial position of the club was far worse than we were told last June and we should be even more worried about our future.

The thing is we can;t be certain because we have never had a reasonable explanation of how things went so horribly wrong so quickly, we have never been walked through the declining financial health of the club from 2020 to 2023 and until we do get this, all we can do is speculate based on the small amount of information we have some of which appears to be inaccurate resulting in some people believing the fraud office should be involved.

Precisely, mismanagement and fraud have been mentioned because we know there were problems, but we cannot see them in the accounts. Therefore we cannot categorically say that when Nick Igoe said there was no evidence of fraud, that he was party to hiding something. Its much more likely with a trust owned club, that can't just bail itself out, that the debts are elsewhere, because we have used rental agreements to spread the annual costs over several budgets.

Look at the other clubs, most making an average £2 million loss. Do you believe that they haven't had the issue of £1 million revenue taken away to deal with?

I'm not sure what you mean about £1 million revenue taken away. I'm travelling today so do t have access to the published accounts but there will be a Revenue/Turnover figure published each year. The trend there I'm sure is upwards but probably dipped during the behind closed doors season.

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 1:52 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 1:27 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 12:42 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 11:22 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 7:35 am

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 9:51 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 3:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 2:31 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:50 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:32 pm

Well it absolutely is the case and in my opinion there is nothing to stop them from doing so now other than Hj lacking the desire to sell them more shares. We did after all pass a resolution at the last AGM to allow more shares to be allocated but the club has yet to do so.

I think you have a problem understanding the concept of debt. The club has always carried debt and always will, The club had debt before it was owned by the Trust, had debt while owned by the Trust and will have debt into the future now that it is no longer owned by the Trust.

The club did borrow money from the bank while Trust owned, both the 2020 and 2021 accounts show Bank borrowing of exactly £50,000. The club could have issued shares to raise capital. It was more a lack of the desire to do these things rather than being prevented from doing so. However, had they done so, I doubt things would have worked out much different.

The concept of debt in relation to loss is important. Companies short of funds will use every opportunity including the overdraft up to the maximum. So 900k of loss on the 30 June could be a small profit on the 30 July after our TV money comes in. Likewise season ticket loss is not a loss in real terms as it is what we sell! All of which is why you can have the same loss appearing year after year, as the cut off point of the accounts dictates wether a loss or small profit occurs.

You clearly don't understand double entry book keeping.

EDIT: If as you suggest, EFL money is due during July, the accounts for the period to 30th June will show the payment from the previous year in them. If you move the accounting year forward a month, the payment made in July this year will appear in them but the payment made in July last year will drop off the back end so the end result is the same. Each year's accounts will include one year's worth of EFL payments. A loss is a loss, a debt is a debt.

But we know that during covid, payments were brought forward as there was no income. It didn't therefore mean that there would be a next payment due, because it had already been paid.

So, so far you have mentioned debts of £100k in the accounts that you can find...... I've just found you a £1millon.

I have also asked you about accrued expenses? What might these be? Could it be related?

And for the sake of ballance can you also attempt to calculate how much of the loss would be due to season ticket sales etc.? These being included as a debt, due to them being a service paid up front, but not received until the final game of the following season.

I will be grateful therefore for some answers please.......

I have no idea what happened during the Covid period so no idea what payments you think were brought forward.

To the best of my knowledge I haven't mentioned £100k. I have mentioned the same £50k debt in 2 different years so maybe you are mistaking the same £50k in both years'accounts as being separate amounts.

As I remember it from a long time ago, the treatment of season ticket sales in accrual accounting terms should be as follows - When we sell a season ticket, it is not included in our revenue at the time of the sale. The way it is treated in the accounts is that the amount is debited to our bank or cash account and a credit entry is made to deferred revenue (or similarly named account) as both Cash/Bank and deferred revenue (as a current liability) are both Balance Sheet items, this will have zero impact on profit and loss but is a liability (i.e. debt) that will be included in the Creditors section of the Balance Sheet being balanced by the cash at bank.
Then as each match is played, the relevant amount (usually 1/23rd of the season ticket price) is debited to deferred revenue and credited to Revenue. It is at this point that the profit from each match represented by season ticket sales will flow through. This method is used to ensure that profit is recognised at the correct time.

Now for the guesswork, deferred revenue and accrued expenses are very similar beasts. In simple terms, deferred revenue is something you have been paid for but not yet delivered and accrued expenses are things you have received but not yet been billed/paid for thus both are current liabilities as in the near future you have to deliver the goods or services you have been paid for and you have to pay for the goods or services you have received. I suspect that in our Balance Sheet, the season ticket sales are being shown in accrued expenses but can't be certain

I hope that helps but as I said, it is many years (over 40) since I studied accountancy making me by no means an expert and somebody else on this messageboard will surely be able to explain this better than I have.

Thank you, a detailed and knowledgable explanation.

So at 30th of June it's likely that season ticket sales is making up half of the annual loss, as none of them would have been credited to revenue at that point?

....

Let's stop there because there is little point reading on from there until we get the P&L position right.

The season ticket sales treatment does not impact the profit and loss account. As of 30th June it is wholly a balance sheet transaction.

The only way I can see that it could impact on the profit and loss in a season is if the accounting treatment changed from cash accounting to accrual accounting for that season. However if that was the case, the impact would balance out somewhat in the following season being a second consecutive seasons under accrual accounting.

So if in one year you account for season ticket sales as revenue and in the following year you accrue them, with all other things being equal, you will have a higher profit in the first year and a lower profit in the second year. BUT if you continue with accrual accounting in the third year, your profit will return to normal.

So it may be possible to explain away some of our loss in 2021 by saying that we took the season ticket revenue in 2020 and have now corrected that. That may be the case and it would be helpful if the Board had ever come out and given such an explanation of how they recorded a £1,2million loss in that year's accounts. And while it would call into question the performance of our financial management, accountancy advice and auditing process, it would be a one-off hit in one set of accounts.

However, they have also reported a loss of £913k in 2022. If we accept the cash accounting/accrual accounting explanation for part of the £1,2million loss in 2021. The loss in the following year has just become even bigger failure in comparison. If this is correct, the financial position of the club was far worse than we were told last June and we should be even more worried about our future.

The thing is we can;t be certain because we have never had a reasonable explanation of how things went so horribly wrong so quickly, we have never been walked through the declining financial health of the club from 2020 to 2023 and until we do get this, all we can do is speculate based on the small amount of information we have some of which appears to be inaccurate resulting in some people believing the fraud office should be involved.

Precisely, mismanagement and fraud have been mentioned because we know there were problems, but we cannot see them in the accounts. Therefore we cannot categorically say that when Nick Igoe said there was no evidence of fraud, that he was party to hiding something. Its much more likely with a trust owned club, that can't just bail itself out, that the debts are elsewhere, because we have used rental agreements to spread the annual costs over several budgets.

Look at the other clubs, most making an average £2 million loss. Do you believe that they haven't had the issue of £1 million revenue taken away to deal with?

I'm not sure what you mean about £1 million revenue taken away. I'm travelling today so do t have access to the published accounts but there will be a Revenue/Turnover figure published each year. The trend there I'm sure is upwards but probably dipped during the behind closed doors season.

I'm referring to the missing £1 million tv payments, but it didn't happen at the time, because the missing income was later. I believe that has happened with other things as well, which is why we made small profits in covid years, but losses afterwards.

Obviously we didn't have great season ticket sales in covid, and I seem to remember them starting later as well.

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 9:49 pm

Looking at those figures, it looks like we did quite well out of Covid

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 9:49 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 1:52 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 1:27 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 12:42 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 11:22 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 7:35 am

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 9:51 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 3:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 2:31 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 12:50 pm

The concept of debt in relation to loss is important. Companies short of funds will use every opportunity including the overdraft up to the maximum. So 900k of loss on the 30 June could be a small profit on the 30 July after our TV money comes in. Likewise season ticket loss is not a loss in real terms as it is what we sell! All of which is why you can have the same loss appearing year after year, as the cut off point of the accounts dictates wether a loss or small profit occurs.

You clearly don't understand double entry book keeping.

EDIT: If as you suggest, EFL money is due during July, the accounts for the period to 30th June will show the payment from the previous year in them. If you move the accounting year forward a month, the payment made in July this year will appear in them but the payment made in July last year will drop off the back end so the end result is the same. Each year's accounts will include one year's worth of EFL payments. A loss is a loss, a debt is a debt.

But we know that during covid, payments were brought forward as there was no income. It didn't therefore mean that there would be a next payment due, because it had already been paid.

So, so far you have mentioned debts of £100k in the accounts that you can find...... I've just found you a £1millon.

I have also asked you about accrued expenses? What might these be? Could it be related?

And for the sake of ballance can you also attempt to calculate how much of the loss would be due to season ticket sales etc.? These being included as a debt, due to them being a service paid up front, but not received until the final game of the following season.

I will be grateful therefore for some answers please.......

I have no idea what happened during the Covid period so no idea what payments you think were brought forward.

To the best of my knowledge I haven't mentioned £100k. I have mentioned the same £50k debt in 2 different years so maybe you are mistaking the same £50k in both years'accounts as being separate amounts.

As I remember it from a long time ago, the treatment of season ticket sales in accrual accounting terms should be as follows - When we sell a season ticket, it is not included in our revenue at the time of the sale. The way it is treated in the accounts is that the amount is debited to our bank or cash account and a credit entry is made to deferred revenue (or similarly named account) as both Cash/Bank and deferred revenue (as a current liability) are both Balance Sheet items, this will have zero impact on profit and loss but is a liability (i.e. debt) that will be included in the Creditors section of the Balance Sheet being balanced by the cash at bank.
Then as each match is played, the relevant amount (usually 1/23rd of the season ticket price) is debited to deferred revenue and credited to Revenue. It is at this point that the profit from each match represented by season ticket sales will flow through. This method is used to ensure that profit is recognised at the correct time.

Now for the guesswork, deferred revenue and accrued expenses are very similar beasts. In simple terms, deferred revenue is something you have been paid for but not yet delivered and accrued expenses are things you have received but not yet been billed/paid for thus both are current liabilities as in the near future you have to deliver the goods or services you have been paid for and you have to pay for the goods or services you have received. I suspect that in our Balance Sheet, the season ticket sales are being shown in accrued expenses but can't be certain

I hope that helps but as I said, it is many years (over 40) since I studied accountancy making me by no means an expert and somebody else on this messageboard will surely be able to explain this better than I have.

Thank you, a detailed and knowledgable explanation.

So at 30th of June it's likely that season ticket sales is making up half of the annual loss, as none of them would have been credited to revenue at that point?

....

Let's stop there because there is little point reading on from there until we get the P&L position right.

The season ticket sales treatment does not impact the profit and loss account. As of 30th June it is wholly a balance sheet transaction.

The only way I can see that it could impact on the profit and loss in a season is if the accounting treatment changed from cash accounting to accrual accounting for that season. However if that was the case, the impact would balance out somewhat in the following season being a second consecutive seasons under accrual accounting.

So if in one year you account for season ticket sales as revenue and in the following year you accrue them, with all other things being equal, you will have a higher profit in the first year and a lower profit in the second year. BUT if you continue with accrual accounting in the third year, your profit will return to normal.

So it may be possible to explain away some of our loss in 2021 by saying that we took the season ticket revenue in 2020 and have now corrected that. That may be the case and it would be helpful if the Board had ever come out and given such an explanation of how they recorded a £1,2million loss in that year's accounts. And while it would call into question the performance of our financial management, accountancy advice and auditing process, it would be a one-off hit in one set of accounts.

However, they have also reported a loss of £913k in 2022. If we accept the cash accounting/accrual accounting explanation for part of the £1,2million loss in 2021. The loss in the following year has just become even bigger failure in comparison. If this is correct, the financial position of the club was far worse than we were told last June and we should be even more worried about our future.

The thing is we can;t be certain because we have never had a reasonable explanation of how things went so horribly wrong so quickly, we have never been walked through the declining financial health of the club from 2020 to 2023 and until we do get this, all we can do is speculate based on the small amount of information we have some of which appears to be inaccurate resulting in some people believing the fraud office should be involved.

Precisely, mismanagement and fraud have been mentioned because we know there were problems, but we cannot see them in the accounts. Therefore we cannot categorically say that when Nick Igoe said there was no evidence of fraud, that he was party to hiding something. Its much more likely with a trust owned club, that can't just bail itself out, that the debts are elsewhere, because we have used rental agreements to spread the annual costs over several budgets.

Look at the other clubs, most making an average £2 million loss. Do you believe that they haven't had the issue of £1 million revenue taken away to deal with?

I'm not sure what you mean about £1 million revenue taken away. I'm travelling today so do t have access to the published accounts but there will be a Revenue/Turnover figure published each year. The trend there I'm sure is upwards but probably dipped during the behind closed doors season.

I'm referring to the missing £1 million tv payments, but it didn't happen at the time, because the missing income was later. I believe that has happened with other things as well, which is why we made small profits in covid years, but losses afterwards.

Obviously we didn't have great season ticket sales in covid, and I seem to remember them starting later as well.

We didn't lose anything in TV payments because football hardly stopped. The 19/20 season stopped in March but the 20/21 season was played in full but behind closed doors. Matches were broadcast. Because we played behind closed doors grants were made available to clubs to compensate for the loss of gate revenue such as the Premier League gave an additional £30million to the EFL and the EFL also made "monitored grants" available. I believe the money we received from these grants is shown separately in the P&L for the 2 years to 2020 and 2021.

It is our expenditure that was allowed to get out of hand.

In 2018 we had income of £3.4 million (including player sales) and spent £3.3 million so made a profit of £82k
In 2019 we had income of £4.8 million (cup runs) and spent £3.9 million making a profit of £967K. We had £1.3 million in the bank at this point.
In 2020 we had income of £3.6 million and grants of £500k making £4.1 million in total and spent £3.8 million making another profit of £300k and again had £1.3 million in the bank
2021 income was £3.5 million plus grants of £476k making £4 million and spent £4 million the profit was £25 and the bank was down to £836k because it seems we weren't collecting debts
2022 Income was £3.28 million and the grants had finished but we spent £4.5 million losing £1.2 million
2023 Income £3.4 million and spent £4.4 million losing nigh on £1 million

Looking at those figures, it looks like we did quite well out of Covid but started spending money like water.

So the big question seems to be what have we been spending an additional about £1million a year on in the last 4 years compared to 2018?

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 18th, 2024, 6:38 am

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 9:49 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 1:52 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 1:27 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 12:42 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 17th, 2024, 11:22 am

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 17th, 2024, 7:35 am

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 9:51 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 16th, 2024, 3:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 16th, 2024, 2:31 pm

You clearly don't understand double entry book keeping.

EDIT: If as you suggest, EFL money is due during July, the accounts for the period to 30th June will show the payment from the previous year in them. If you move the accounting year forward a month, the payment made in July this year will appear in them but the payment made in July last year will drop off the back end so the end result is the same. Each year's accounts will include one year's worth of EFL payments. A loss is a loss, a debt is a debt.

But we know that during covid, payments were brought forward as there was no income. It didn't therefore mean that there would be a next payment due, because it had already been paid.

So, so far you have mentioned debts of £100k in the accounts that you can find...... I've just found you a £1millon.

I have also asked you about accrued expenses? What might these be? Could it be related?

And for the sake of ballance can you also attempt to calculate how much of the loss would be due to season ticket sales etc.? These being included as a debt, due to them being a service paid up front, but not received until the final game of the following season.

I will be grateful therefore for some answers please.......

I have no idea what happened during the Covid period so no idea what payments you think were brought forward.

To the best of my knowledge I haven't mentioned £100k. I have mentioned the same £50k debt in 2 different years so maybe you are mistaking the same £50k in both years'accounts as being separate amounts.

As I remember it from a long time ago, the treatment of season ticket sales in accrual accounting terms should be as follows - When we sell a season ticket, it is not included in our revenue at the time of the sale. The way it is treated in the accounts is that the amount is debited to our bank or cash account and a credit entry is made to deferred revenue (or similarly named account) as both Cash/Bank and deferred revenue (as a current liability) are both Balance Sheet items, this will have zero impact on profit and loss but is a liability (i.e. debt) that will be included in the Creditors section of the Balance Sheet being balanced by the cash at bank.
Then as each match is played, the relevant amount (usually 1/23rd of the season ticket price) is debited to deferred revenue and credited to Revenue. It is at this point that the profit from each match represented by season ticket sales will flow through. This method is used to ensure that profit is recognised at the correct time.

Now for the guesswork, deferred revenue and accrued expenses are very similar beasts. In simple terms, deferred revenue is something you have been paid for but not yet delivered and accrued expenses are things you have received but not yet been billed/paid for thus both are current liabilities as in the near future you have to deliver the goods or services you have been paid for and you have to pay for the goods or services you have received. I suspect that in our Balance Sheet, the season ticket sales are being shown in accrued expenses but can't be certain

I hope that helps but as I said, it is many years (over 40) since I studied accountancy making me by no means an expert and somebody else on this messageboard will surely be able to explain this better than I have.

Thank you, a detailed and knowledgable explanation.

So at 30th of June it's likely that season ticket sales is making up half of the annual loss, as none of them would have been credited to revenue at that point?

....

Let's stop there because there is little point reading on from there until we get the P&L position right.

The season ticket sales treatment does not impact the profit and loss account. As of 30th June it is wholly a balance sheet transaction.

The only way I can see that it could impact on the profit and loss in a season is if the accounting treatment changed from cash accounting to accrual accounting for that season. However if that was the case, the impact would balance out somewhat in the following season being a second consecutive seasons under accrual accounting.

So if in one year you account for season ticket sales as revenue and in the following year you accrue them, with all other things being equal, you will have a higher profit in the first year and a lower profit in the second year. BUT if you continue with accrual accounting in the third year, your profit will return to normal.

So it may be possible to explain away some of our loss in 2021 by saying that we took the season ticket revenue in 2020 and have now corrected that. That may be the case and it would be helpful if the Board had ever come out and given such an explanation of how they recorded a £1,2million loss in that year's accounts. And while it would call into question the performance of our financial management, accountancy advice and auditing process, it would be a one-off hit in one set of accounts.

However, they have also reported a loss of £913k in 2022. If we accept the cash accounting/accrual accounting explanation for part of the £1,2million loss in 2021. The loss in the following year has just become even bigger failure in comparison. If this is correct, the financial position of the club was far worse than we were told last June and we should be even more worried about our future.

The thing is we can;t be certain because we have never had a reasonable explanation of how things went so horribly wrong so quickly, we have never been walked through the declining financial health of the club from 2020 to 2023 and until we do get this, all we can do is speculate based on the small amount of information we have some of which appears to be inaccurate resulting in some people believing the fraud office should be involved.

Precisely, mismanagement and fraud have been mentioned because we know there were problems, but we cannot see them in the accounts. Therefore we cannot categorically say that when Nick Igoe said there was no evidence of fraud, that he was party to hiding something. Its much more likely with a trust owned club, that can't just bail itself out, that the debts are elsewhere, because we have used rental agreements to spread the annual costs over several budgets.

Look at the other clubs, most making an average £2 million loss. Do you believe that they haven't had the issue of £1 million revenue taken away to deal with?

I'm not sure what you mean about £1 million revenue taken away. I'm travelling today so do t have access to the published accounts but there will be a Revenue/Turnover figure published each year. The trend there I'm sure is upwards but probably dipped during the behind closed doors season.

I'm referring to the missing £1 million tv payments, but it didn't happen at the time, because the missing income was later. I believe that has happened with other things as well, which is why we made small profits in covid years, but losses afterwards.

Obviously we didn't have great season ticket sales in covid, and I seem to remember them starting later as well.

We didn't lose anything in TV payments because football hardly stopped. The 19/20 season stopped in March but the 20/21 season was played in full but behind closed doors. Matches were broadcast. Because we played behind closed doors grants were made available to clubs to compensate for the loss of gate revenue such as the Premier League gave an additional £30million to the EFL and the EFL also made "monitored grants" available. I believe the money we received from these grants is shown separately in the P&L for the 2 years to 2020 and 2021.

It is our expenditure that was allowed to get out of hand.

In 2018 we had income of £3.4 million (including player sales) and spent £3.3 million so made a profit of £82k
In 2019 we had income of £4.8 million (cup runs) and spent £3.9 million making a profit of £967K. We had £1.3 million in the bank at this point.
In 2020 we had income of £3.6 million and grants of £500k making £4.1 million in total and spent £3.8 million making another profit of £300k and again had £1.3 million in the bank
2021 income was £3.5 million plus grants of £476k making £4 million and spent £4 million the profit was £25 and the bank was down to £836k because it seems we weren't collecting debts
2022 Income was £3.28 million and the grants had finished but we spent £4.5 million losing £1.2 million
2023 Income £3.4 million and spent £4.4 million losing nigh on £1 million

Looking at those figures, it looks like we did quite well out of Covid but started spending money like water.

So the big question seems to be what have we been spending an additional about £1million a year on in the last 4 years compared to 2018?

Thanks,

Income has stayed the same since 2018 at £3.5 million then, but costs have gone up. At the County Shareholders meeting in 2023 (I am not a County Shareholder, so didn't go) apparently it was mentioned that the previous years accounts were wrong. So is it likely that it was spending that was shown wrong in 2021-2022 and 2022-2023?
If that is the case, then whoever was presenting the effect on future budgets, was getting that wrong as well.
HJ has said that the electronic advertising is hired, so that should increase spending but is not actually our debt, so that would not be shown in our accounts. So part of our losses, but not actual debt, as far as our accounts show, is that correct?

There is an EFL loan shown in the accounts, and the accrued expenses that we are not sure about.

Season ticket prices have stayed similar, with actual numbers increasing. HJ has not increased them this time either, which suggests that the pricing was broadly correct/what is required. We also know that there will be an increase in income due to the new TV deal next season.

We know that HJ has sorted cash flow, and thus we are not in danger of not managing to meet commitments, and suffer a league imposed penalty.

So HJ is at least keeping spending tight, but the income should increase. So small changes at present, that we can see from his comments and actions.

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 3:29 pm My biggest take away from a brief look at the Carlisle accounts is that they were making a loss most years before Covid, they made profits during 2020. 2021 and 2022 when grants, furlough etc were available but have slipped back into loss making. On the face of it, they did better during that period.

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 18th, 2024, 4:49 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 3:29 pm My biggest take away from a brief look at the Carlisle accounts is that they were making a loss most years before Covid, they made profits during 2020. 2021 and 2022 when grants, furlough etc were available but have slipped back into loss making. On the face of it, they did better during that period.

They slipped back into loss making, because they increased the player budget from £1.3 million to £1.8 million whilst changing managers and players. From EFL data in March 2023, the new total was in the bottom quartile of league two, however they gained promotion by finishing 5th.

My comment is, it shows that all clubs had resumed spending on players following Covid.

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 5:03 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 18th, 2024, 4:49 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 3:29 pm My biggest take away from a brief look at the Carlisle accounts is that they were making a loss most years before Covid, they made profits during 2020. 2021 and 2022 when grants, furlough etc were available but have slipped back into loss making. On the face of it, they did better during that period.

They slipped back into loss making, because they increased the player budget from £1.3 million to £1.8 million whilst changing managers and players. From EFL data in March 2023, the new total was in the bottom quartile of league two, however they gained promotion by finishing 5th.

My comment is, it shows that all clubs had resumed spending on players following Covid.

Exactly. Covid was not a problem for clubs' finances. It actually helped some clubs to control their finances better during that period and put them in a stronger position. We can't blame Covid for us losing over £2million.

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 18th, 2024, 6:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 5:03 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 18th, 2024, 4:49 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 3:29 pm My biggest take away from a brief look at the Carlisle accounts is that they were making a loss most years before Covid, they made profits during 2020. 2021 and 2022 when grants, furlough etc were available but have slipped back into loss making. On the face of it, they did better during that period.

They slipped back into loss making, because they increased the player budget from £1.3 million to £1.8 million whilst changing managers and players. From EFL data in March 2023, the new total was in the bottom quartile of league two, however they gained promotion by finishing 5th.

My comment is, it shows that all clubs had resumed spending on players following Covid.

Exactly. Covid was not a problem for clubs' finances. It actually helped some clubs to control their finances better during that period and put them in a stronger position. We can't blame Covid for us losing over £2million.

The after affects of Covid are there to be seen though, if a team losses money in the playoffs. Ours were immediately after Covid, FGR at home was limited to 2000 capacity with no away fans. Playoffs have different financial rules attached to them compared regular games in the season, and we also had different covid rules in Wales at the time, so were the only team affected.

What I am saying is the overspend is lots of pressures together, not a single factor. Other clubs spending more we don't have to match, but for players seen as key to staying in the division, that could be different. Micky stayed a long time, and most would have said was irreplaceable in terms of the club staying competitive. This season is the first without him and we have nearly matched last seasons total.
GC stated at the start of the season that we couldn't match the playing budget of the top 15 teams and he was losing players to teams that were, like us, in the bottom quartile of league two for playing budget.

Would we have stayed in League Two without relaying the pitch? Etc etc there are pressures everywhere, all clubs have them, some survive others don't. What we didn't have that Carlisle did, was a £2 million loan that while it was accruing interest, capital repayment was nothing whatsoever. How many other clubs with partial fan ownership had that facility?

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 7:47 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 18th, 2024, 6:19 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 5:03 pm

Bangitintrnet wrote: April 18th, 2024, 4:49 pm

Amberexile wrote: April 18th, 2024, 3:29 pm My biggest take away from a brief look at the Carlisle accounts is that they were making a loss most years before Covid, they made profits during 2020. 2021 and 2022 when grants, furlough etc were available but have slipped back into loss making. On the face of it, they did better during that period.

They slipped back into loss making, because they increased the player budget from £1.3 million to £1.8 million whilst changing managers and players. From EFL data in March 2023, the new total was in the bottom quartile of league two, however they gained promotion by finishing 5th.

My comment is, it shows that all clubs had resumed spending on players following Covid.

Exactly. Covid was not a problem for clubs' finances. It actually helped some clubs to control their finances better during that period and put them in a stronger position. We can't blame Covid for us losing over £2million.

The after affects of Covid are there to be seen though, if a team losses money in the playoffs. Ours were immediately after Covid, FGR at home was limited to 2000 capacity with no away fans. Playoffs have different financial rules attached to them compared regular games in the season, and we also had different covid rules in Wales at the time, so were the only team affected.

What I am saying is the overspend is lots of pressures together, not a single factor. Other clubs spending more we don't have to match, but for players seen as key to staying in the division, that could be different. Micky stayed a long time, and most would have said was irreplaceable in terms of the club staying competitive. This season is the first without him and we have nearly matched last seasons total.
GC stated at the start of the season that we couldn't match the playing budget of the top 15 teams and he was losing players to teams that were, like us, in the bottom quartile of league two for playing budget.

Would we have stayed in League Two without relaying the pitch? Etc etc there are pressures everywhere, all clubs have them, some survive others don't. What we didn't have that Carlisle did, was a £2 million loan that while it was accruing interest, capital repayment was nothing whatsoever. How many other clubs with partial fan ownership had that facility?

There are so many ifs buts and maybes because the Board haven't come clean and explained why they messed up and they aren't going to. We will never know whether we could have stayed in League 2 while running sensible finances because we didn't. They had a very difficult job to do and did a dreadful job of it.

I do think that part of the problem is down to the awful contract for the use of the ground that the previous regime handed over but that can't be all of it. HJ must do better with this in his current negotiations but Rodney Parade will likely continue to be a millstone for us.

We can make excuses for the losses all night long but very few people will believe them. The Board have left people to make up their own minds and many will inevitably think the worst. You can't really blame them in the circumstances.