Melling's equaliser wrote:'I have always considered that racism is not such an extensive problem as some people would want us to believe'.

This could only be written by a white person and I have heard and read countless people of colour say that as soon as they hear this everything else that the person says is worthless.

Spot on. I wonder how many people commenting on this thread are non-white? If you haven't been abused, discriminated or otherwise disenfranchised because of the colour of your skin then I think it's pretty difficult to judge how big a problem racism is.

lowandhard wrote:

Ironsider wrote:Free speech is just a vehicle used for racists and bigots to spout their bile.

Like it or lump it, this country has become a sewer run by racists, where those who would have been ostracised for such abhorrent views are now part of the normal political and social discourse.

Antifascist, anti racists, anti bigots are portrayed as hard far left or marxists, as exemplified in a few misguided and ignorant posts in this thread.

Personally I feel the best remedy to absolve racists and bigots of their views is a good hiding. These tossers like Tommy Robinson who have become poster boys for this element, the same type of knob who booed as Millwall, should be on the end of a severe kicking, it's the only language that will get through to their thick heads.

Don't start bleating about free speech, it's a get out for the very worst in society to spread their poison.

If you're offended by 22 blokes kneeling on a football pitch for a few seconds then you're a part of the problem and need to put the Daily Mail and Sun down and get a grip.

The end.

While I agree with you in the thrust of your argument I’m not up for the violent bit. However, when you’ve got a PM who talks about “ picaninnies with watermelon smiles “ and likens Moslem women to letterboxes then it’s bound to encourage racism from those who had previously not felt emboldened to spout their racist bile and throw abuse, bananas and now pre-match boos at their own team’s footballers.
We must never forget how this inevitably ends, you start off “ othering “ groups like socialists, marxists, certain racial groups and the disabled and socially useless and you end with extermination camps Auschwitz, Treblinka , Sorbibor, Buchenwald etc.
That’s why a couple of seconds before a game as a reminder is hardly a big problem at all. If it’s considered to be extraneous to the actual game then so are the minute silences and the poppies.

Hi Mike,

Here's my problem.

Firstly I am not offended by people taking the knee. And I have no doubt the abhorrent behaviour of some Millwall fans was motivated by racism. And I hope my initial post on this made both those points clear. However my view remains that it is a political gesture. I don't have a problem with it but per se but what when I do. Politics and religion should play no part in sport. You only have to look to Glasgow to see the utterly ludicrous things which occur when they do. For the same reason I am against Labour Party advertisements in the programme, or a terrace sponsored by a Trade Union. If UKIP or the Tory Party wanted to sponsor a stand would I be happy with that? Absolutely not. And to say it's okay to have political gestures I agree with but not to have political gestures I don't agree with strikes me as being a tad hypocritical.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

lowandhard wrote:

Ironsider wrote:Free speech is just a vehicle used for racists and bigots to spout their bile.

Like it or lump it, this country has become a sewer run by racists, where those who would have been ostracised for such abhorrent views are now part of the normal political and social discourse.

Antifascist, anti racists, anti bigots are portrayed as hard far left or marxists, as exemplified in a few misguided and ignorant posts in this thread.

Personally I feel the best remedy to absolve racists and bigots of their views is a good hiding. These tossers like Tommy Robinson who have become poster boys for this element, the same type of knob who booed as Millwall, should be on the end of a severe kicking, it's the only language that will get through to their thick heads.

Don't start bleating about free speech, it's a get out for the very worst in society to spread their poison.

If you're offended by 22 blokes kneeling on a football pitch for a few seconds then you're a part of the problem and need to put the Daily Mail and Sun down and get a grip.

The end.

While I agree with you in the thrust of your argument I’m not up for the violent bit. However, when you’ve got a PM who talks about “ picaninnies with watermelon smiles “ and likens Moslem women to letterboxes then it’s bound to encourage racism from those who had previously not felt emboldened to spout their racist bile and throw abuse, bananas and now pre-match boos at their own team’s footballers.
We must never forget how this inevitably ends, you start off “ othering “ groups like socialists, marxists, certain racial groups and the disabled and socially useless and you end with extermination camps Auschwitz, Treblinka , Sorbibor, Buchenwald etc.
That’s why a couple of seconds before a game as a reminder is hardly a big problem at all. If it’s considered to be extraneous to the actual game then so are the minute silences and the poppies.

Hi Mike,

Here's my problem.

Firstly I am not offended by people taking the knee. And I have no doubt the abhorrent behaviour of some Millwall fans was motivated by racism. And I hope my initial post on this made both those points clear. However my view remains that it is a political gesture. I don't have a problem with it but per se but what when I do. Politics and religion should play no part in sport. You only have to look to Glasgow to see the utterly ludicrous things which occur when they do. For the same reason I am against Labour Party advertisements in the programme, or a terrace sponsored by a Trade Union. If UKIP or the Tory Party wanted to sponsor a stand would I be happy with that? Absolutely not. And to say it's okay to have political gestures I agree with but not to have political gestures I don't agree with strikes me as being a tad hypocritical.

Fair enough, but it comes to a pretty pass when to make a gesture against racism is regarded as a political act. I think it’s just common decency to be against racism and to demonstrate ones antagonism to such behaviour. To me it’s just about being a decent human being. I think the conflation of “ Black Lives Matter “ with Marxism and extreme socialism is a right wing device to attempt to discredit it. To stop public displays of sympathy stops racists from having their consciences pricked on a regular basis despite the real need to do so because one-off protests just haven’t worked as has been exemplified by the behaviour not only of Millwall fans but also by the way the Metropolitan Police carry out their stops and searches.

Martin Luther King was branded as a communist by the FBI during the civil rights movement. Labelling anti-racist movements as marxist, communist or socialist aren't new tactics from the right. If anyone thinks the tens of millions of supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement all have the same left wing agenda, they're deluding themselves.

DT1892 wrote:Martin Luther King was branded as a communist by the FBI during the civil rights movement. Labelling anti-racist movements as marxist, communist or socialist aren't new tactics from the right. If anyone thinks the tens of millions of supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement all have the same left wing agenda, they're deluding themselves.

I agree entirely with that.

However I also believe that this tactic is used to brand those who object to Israel's disgraceful treatment Palestinians as anti-Semitic. So my view remains that politics, and not just party politics should be kept out of sport.

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

DT1892 wrote:Martin Luther King was branded as a communist by the FBI during the civil rights movement. Labelling anti-racist movements as marxist, communist or socialist aren't new tactics from the right. If anyone thinks the tens of millions of supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement all have the same left wing agenda, they're deluding themselves.

I agree entirely with that.

However I also believe that this tactic is used to brand those who object to Israel's disgraceful treatment Palestinians as anti-Semitic. So my view remains that politics, and not just party politics should be kept out of sport.

When footballers in this country are still being racially abused while doing their jobs, there should be no complaints if they choose to protest during that time. Any other line of work and a protest would be comended. Had the Millwall players decided to walk off due to the reaction of the supporters, I would've had absolutely no problem. In fact, I believe the authorities won't take the issue seriously until the players decide to strike.

We'd all love to keep politics out of sport, but society is too fucked for that to be possible.

If Newport and the rest of Wales was fairly free of Covid, like in August, we would have a case for demanding the return of fans. As it is Newport and most of Wales would not be allowed crowds under England's rules and we do not have a case.

DT1892 wrote:

Stan A. Einstein wrote:

DT1892 wrote:Martin Luther King was branded as a communist by the FBI during the civil rights movement. Labelling anti-racist movements as marxist, communist or socialist aren't new tactics from the right. If anyone thinks the tens of millions of supporters of the Black Lives Matter movement all have the same left wing agenda, they're deluding themselves.

I agree entirely with that.

However I also believe that this tactic is used to brand those who object to Israel's disgraceful treatment Palestinians as anti-Semitic. So my view remains that politics, and not just party politics should be kept out of sport.

When footballers in this country are still being racially abused while doing their jobs, there should be no complaints if they choose to protest during that time. Any other line of work and a protest would be comended. Had the Millwall players decided to walk off due to the reaction of the supporters, I would've had absolutely no problem. In fact, I believe the authorities won't take the issue seriously until the players decide to strike.

We'd all love to keep politics out of sport, but society is too fucked for that to be possible.

Society is not too fucked (as you quaintly put it). (Is it really necessary to swear on this MB?) How many other sports in the UK actually take the knee? That aside, you’re making the assumption because it’s Millwall fans, it has to be racist. No mention of West Ham & Colchester fans also booing this ridiculous gesture. If any fan of any club racially abuses a player, that team should walk off. However, I thought ( for example) Marlon Jackson was a total sack of shite. Not for his skin colour, but for his total lack of ability, Am I, as a paying customer not allowed to say so? Am I racially abusing him? Well some may think so. Therein lies a problem. Back to the knee-taking, BLM are a left-wing organisation with ties to Antifa. I consider myself a normal, centrist-political person. I don’t want to see left or right wing politics when I watch a football match, I just want to watch a football match.

Dogger wrote:How many other sports in the UK actually take the knee? That aside, you’re making the assumption because it’s Millwall fans, it has to be racist. No mention of West Ham & Colchester fans also booing this ridiculous gesture.

Those fans are also likely racists.

If any fan of any club racially abuses a player, that team should walk off. However, I thought ( for example) Marlon Jackson was a total sack of shite. Not for his skin colour, but for his total lack of ability, Am I, as a paying customer not allowed to say so? Am I racially abusing him? Well some may think so.

No, saying that you think a black footballer is shit at football is not racist.

Therein lies a problem. Back to the knee-taking, BLM are a left-wing organisation with ties to Antifa.

First of all, BLM is a movement, not an organisation. Secondly, there are supporters across the political spectrum. Some might be Marxist. Some might be centrists like yourself. Some might even have voted UKIP before. Probably no BNP voters though, obviously.

As racism and fascism usually go hand-in-hand, I'm not surprised that Antifa have a similar ideology as those within the BLM movement. I mean if being against racism and fascism is purely a left-wing viewpoint, then the world definitely is.....

I consider myself a normal, centrist-political person. I don’t want to see left or right wing politics when I watch a football match, I just want to watch a football match.

I want a world without racism, but sometimes we don't get what we want.

DT1892 wrote:

Dogger wrote:How many other sports in the UK actually take the knee? That aside, you’re making the assumption because it’s Millwall fans, it has to be racist. No mention of West Ham & Colchester fans also booing this ridiculous gesture.

Those fans are also likely racists.

If any fan of any club racially abuses a player, that team should walk off. However, I thought ( for example) Marlon Jackson was a total sack of shite. Not for his skin colour, but for his total lack of ability, Am I, as a paying customer not allowed to say so? Am I racially abusing him? Well some may think so.

No, saying that you think a black footballer is shit at football is not racist.

Therein lies a problem. Back to the knee-taking, BLM are a left-wing organisation with ties to Antifa.

First of all, BLM is a movement, not an organisation. Secondly, there are supporters across the political spectrum. Some might be Marxist. Some might be centrists like yourself. Some might even have voted UKIP before. Probably no BNP voters though, obviously.

As racism and fascism usually go hand-in-hand, I'm not surprised that Antifa have a similar ideology as those within the BLM movement. I mean if being against racism and fascism is purely a left-wing viewpoint, then the world definitely is.....

I consider myself a normal, centrist-political person. I don’t want to see left or right wing politics when I watch a football match, I just want to watch a football match.

I want a world without racism, but sometimes we don't get what we want.

I agree with every point Dt1892 makes with one exception. That being that taking a knee is a political gesture. Once you back one political cause you prioritize that cause. Why do we not criticise the treatment of the Rohingya, the treatment of political dissidents in Iran, gay people in Jamaica and so on?

Rest your knees, everyone. You can link arms now.

In a historical context, the taking of the knee has little to do with Marxism or antifa (a meme promulgated by right-wing US media and by Trump for his own twisted anti-democratic political agenda, and obviously exported across the pond now, conveniently forgetting that the FBI's assessment is that white supremacists/right-wing idealogues pose the greatest current threat to US society).

If it (taking the knee) were, then the English pottery magnate Josiah Wedgwood (1730–1795) must have been a Marxist, long before Karl came into this world and gave us the likes of Das Kapital and his -ism.

After all, it was Josiah who popularised the "taking of the knee" when he designed and distributed his medallion in pursuit of his abolitionist philosophy.

Now fast forward a few dozen years.

A possibly little-known fact is that Karl Marx (and similar-minded individuals) wrote regularly for the New York Tribune in support of abolition around the time of the US Civil War. Yes, Marx(ism) has a long history in the US political sphere around the issues of slavery, and by extension of racist ideals. So Marxism persisting to this day in some of the movers of the BLM should not be seen as a surprise perhaps. Anyhow, the political beliefs of the BLM are not particularly pertinent to the millions of people of obviously varying political views that have taken the knee in the recent past. The issue around taking the knee is about concurring with the idea that non-whites in a white world get the raw end of the deal at the hands of authority, both sides of the Atlantic, and by the fascist and racist rump end of white society, and frequently at football grounds.

Consider the words:

Labor is prior to and independent of capital ... Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.

From the pen of Karl Marx? No. They are the words of the 16th President of the United States, Abraham Lincoln (yes, the very man that Trump has sometimes compared himself with!) in his first, effectively, State of the Union speech in 1861. Though Lincoln wrote/spoke those words, they could have been (or even might have been) a paraphrase of Marx's writings, as Lincoln was a frequent reader of that same New York Tribune when Marx and others of his ilk were writing their articles about abolition and labour.

So, some of the BLM leaders are channelling good ol' Abe, a US icon. Go figure!

But what does it matter if BLM leaders are Marxists? Marxism isn't illegal in the UK or the USA. But it's obvious that right-wing idealogues, from McCarthy onwards at the very least, consider it should be.

My parting thought is that I'd rather embrace and be embraced by a Marxist than by a fascist any day of the year.

More power to the knee. But if others want to stand and embrace, then fine. But if you consider standing and embracing as giving a different message to taking the knee, then you are mistaken.

BLM is both a movement and a political organisation.

The movement I support - the organisation I do not.

That is the reason of some confusion and the reason why I believe that if they changed the campaign name from BLM to 'Red Card to Racism' etc... it would help the situation and understanding. The other confusion is simply ignorance.

Sure, maybe some of the Millwall fans who booed did it just to cause the usual trouble they always cause.

But at least some were racist, we can grant that based on their history of racial abuse as a club.

Withdrawing the knee now, after the response from Millwall's racists, would be to empower *all* racists and tell them society will back down in the face of their behaviour.

Whether you agree with the knee or not, it's important football does *something* to push back against these types of fans. For now, I can't see a way to end the knee without effectively saying that the racist fans won the argument.

Should also note: no major UK political party that supports BLM is arguing for defunding the police

landinho wrote:Sure, maybe some of the Millwall fans who booed did it just to cause the usual trouble they always cause.

But at least some were racist, we can grant that based on their history of racial abuse as a club.

Withdrawing the knee now, after the response from Millwall's racists, would be to empower *all* racists and tell them society will back down in the face of their behaviour.

Whether you agree with the knee or not, it's important football does *something* to push back against these types of fans. For now, I can't see a way to end the knee without effectively saying that the racist fans won the argument.

Should also note: no major UK political party that supports BLM is arguing for defunding the police

Exactly