DT1892 wrote:

Dogger wrote:Only the Milwall fans truly know if their booing of the knee-taking was racially motivated. It could be they were expressing their displeasure at watching footballers support a Marxist organisation whose intention is to defund the Police. I for one , am sick & tired of it. Also, they were probably not impressed by certain players now giving the black power salute as well (TA, I’m looking at you). I want to watch a football match & I’m sure the Millwall fans did. No politics, no Rainbow Laces Initiative, just football.

Very true. Millwall fans have a rich history in anti-Marxist activism, including throwing bananas, aiming monkey noises and chants to footballers they suspected of subscribing to the thoughts of Marxism and never missing the chance to give the Marxist fans of rival clubs a kicking outside the ground.

They didn't boo because of Marxism, they booed because they are racist.

Well said. It’s a case of Ockham’s razor i.e. the simplest explanation. Just ask a black footballer if you don’t believe me, they’re disgusted by ( but probably not surprised ) by the Millwall fans.
If a few seconds before a game reminds us not to be racist then I for one am all for it - not that any of us mind you should need it. Unfortunately Millwall reminds us that we really, really do.

lowandhard wrote:

DT1892 wrote:

Dogger wrote:Only the Milwall fans truly know if their booing of the knee-taking was racially motivated. It could be they were expressing their displeasure at watching footballers support a Marxist organisation whose intention is to defund the Police. I for one , am sick & tired of it. Also, they were probably not impressed by certain players now giving the black power salute as well (TA, I’m looking at you). I want to watch a football match & I’m sure the Millwall fans did. No politics, no Rainbow Laces Initiative, just football.

Very true. Millwall fans have a rich history in anti-Marxist activism, including throwing bananas, aiming monkey noises and chants to footballers they suspected of subscribing to the thoughts of Marxism and never missing the chance to give the Marxist fans of rival clubs a kicking outside the ground.

They didn't boo because of Marxism, they booed because they are racist.

Well said. It’s a case of Ockham’s razor i.e. the simplest explanation. Just ask a black footballer if you don’t believe me, they’re disgusted by ( but probably not surprised ) by the Millwall fans.
If a few seconds before a game reminds us not to be racist then I for one am all for it - not that any of us mind you should need it. Unfortunately Millwall reminds us that we really, really do.

Do people seriously think taking a knee, will make Tommy Robinson et al think hang on a sec... maybe I should organise a party at my local mosque or have a float at the Notting Hill Carnival? Of course not. You won’t change people’s views with this gesture & the continued use of it just dilutes the message.

Dogger wrote:

lowandhard wrote:

DT1892 wrote:

Dogger wrote:Only the Milwall fans truly know if their booing of the knee-taking was racially motivated. It could be they were expressing their displeasure at watching footballers support a Marxist organisation whose intention is to defund the Police. I for one , am sick & tired of it. Also, they were probably not impressed by certain players now giving the black power salute as well (TA, I’m looking at you). I want to watch a football match & I’m sure the Millwall fans did. No politics, no Rainbow Laces Initiative, just football.

Very true. Millwall fans have a rich history in anti-Marxist activism, including throwing bananas, aiming monkey noises and chants to footballers they suspected of subscribing to the thoughts of Marxism and never missing the chance to give the Marxist fans of rival clubs a kicking outside the ground.

They didn't boo because of Marxism, they booed because they are racist.

Well said. It’s a case of Ockham’s razor i.e. the simplest explanation. Just ask a black footballer if you don’t believe me, they’re disgusted by ( but probably not surprised ) by the Millwall fans.
If a few seconds before a game reminds us not to be racist then I for one am all for it - not that any of us mind you should need it. Unfortunately Millwall reminds us that we really, really do.

Do people seriously think taking a knee, will make Tommy Robinson et al think hang on a sec... maybe I should organise a party at my local mosque or have a float at the Notting Hill Carnival? Of course not. You won’t change people’s views with this gesture & the continued use of it just dilutes the message.

I happen to disagree . I think that if we all subscribe to anti-racist activities like taking a knee then it will leave Robinson and similar ***** in a minority and will give racists pause for thought before engaging in racial abuse and racial behaviour. No, I don’t see such people engaging with local Moslems nor do I see them gyrating around Notting Hill though you never know they might get to enjoy it. Incidentally unlike racists, mosques often support their local communities whether white, black or BAME. I have honestly never had a negative experience when engaging with other races and cultures, I really don’t understand what racists are afraid of as presumably they think they are superior to those they aim bananas and boos at.

I suppose that its possible that some of the Millwall fans are raciest however I think that its more likely that the fans who booed are decent people who are just sick to death of the elite of our society lecturing to us.

I think we witnessed at the Den the beginning of the end of the taking the knee. As more and more fans return to stadiums you will get more and more booing until it has to stop

Incidentally it wasn't just the Millwall fans who booed. Apparantly there was booing at West Ham and Colchester

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2020-12 ... ing-a-knee

Snowman wrote:I suppose that its possible that some of the Millwall fans are raciest however I think that its more likely that the fans who booed are decent people who are just sick to death of the elite of our society lecturing to us.

I think we witnessed at the Den the beginning of the end of the taking the knee. As more and more fans return to stadiums you will get more and more booing until it has to stop

Incidentally it wasn't just the Millwall fans who booed. Apparantly there was booing at West Ham and Colchester

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2020-12 ... ing-a-knee

Well all I can say is no number of wrongs make a right. In this article a black Millwall player calls it for what it is - racism
https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... d-football

I never wake up thinking that sometime during the day someone might verbally or physically abuse me because of my skin tone or sexual orientation.

For many people that thought comes into their head every day before they have left home, sometimes causing extreme anxiety and sometimes the abuse occurs. That is why these demonstrations of solidarity and inclusion are important.

If it's just about football then let's scrap the prostate cancer and mental health initiatives too and stop all bucket collections at the ground.

As for Marxism and 'defund the Police', try reading a little about both before posting tropes initiated by right wing Americans.

The problem with letting it go on too long is the movement is depriving itself of a statement it can make if it feels it needs to in future. What next? Kneel before the start of both halves? At the end? During play?

Imagine civil unrest in the wake of Brexit when the penny drops and people realise they voted their families poorer - the government's own list of scenarios includes a fear that "Protests and counter-protests will take place across the UK and may absorb significant amounts of police resources. There may also be a rise in public disorder and community tensions."

It would still only be a gesture, but it would be a powerful message if "taking the knee" were available to be resumed. Which it can't be if it has been left to drift on.

From the Guardian today: Why, to paraphrase Mario Balotelli, is it always them? Millwall. Always Millwall. Despite the attempts of many good people to soften the club’s features, to give them a more friendly face, there is always a knucklehead element dragging them down. ’Twas ever thus for the club with the longest rap sheet in football.

Do you know how long it took for the Den to be closed down because of fan unrest after it opened in August 1920? Less than two months, after fans threw missiles at the Newport goalkeeper, John Cooper – and then, for good measure, punched him when he climbed into the crowd. Millwall’s stadium was shut again in 1934, 1947, 1950, 1978 and 1994. They have probably got off lightly...

I have always considered that racism is not such an extensive problem as some people would want us to believe. To have short snappy campaigns to remind people to remain decent and courteous to each other is acceptable, but I draw a line at indoctrination which this is becoming.

The initial Taking the Knee motive was perhaps a timely reminder and powerful impact statement, but it has now definitely out lived its purpose. The longer it continues the more it will cause increased racial division as people start to rebel against this overt political statement.
The trouble is free speech has long since been lost in this Country, and with it the EFL now lacks the courage to call a halt.

Unless a halt is called and as crowds return, sadly what was witnessed at Millwall may become an increasing phenomenon, setting racial harmony back years.

'I have always considered that racism is not such an extensive problem as some people would want us to believe'.

This could only be written by a white person and I have heard and read countless people of colour say that as soon as they hear this everything else that the person says is worthless.

Homelessness is a cause which creates great stress for me.

Can we all start doing 15 star jumps before the second half starts, to show solidarity with people who have pretty big problems themselves?

Cartwheels for transsexuals?
Press-ups for paraplegics?

I want as many of these events to occur as possible. If we're lucky, by April time a football match will last for about 12 hours and we can all have a proper day out to make up for lost time.

If there ever was a plan for an end to the taking a knee ritual, it has probably been put on hold by the events at Millwall. There might be a determination to make absolutely sure those who booed aren't seen as instigating the end of the event. Does that mean it stays forever? Will fans find another way of indicating they would rather it ceased? Might clubs ask fans if they want it to continue? Personally, I'd rather it finished but by saying that, I've immediately put a marker against my name.

Free speech is just a vehicle used for racists and bigots to spout their bile.

Like it or lump it, this country has become a sewer run by racists, where those who would have been ostracised for such abhorrent views are now part of the normal political and social discourse.

Antifascist, anti racists, anti bigots are portrayed as hard far left or marxists, as exemplified in a few misguided and ignorant posts in this thread.

Personally I feel the best remedy to absolve racists and bigots of their views is a good hiding. These tossers like Tommy Robinson who have become poster boys for this element, the same type of knob who booed as Millwall, should be on the end of a severe kicking, it's the only language that will get through to their thick heads.

Don't start bleating about free speech, it's a get out for the very worst in society to spread their poison.

If you're offended by 22 blokes kneeling on a football pitch for a few seconds then you're a part of the problem and need to put the Daily Mail and Sun down and get a grip.

The end.

I believe the EFL need to move away from the 'BLM' campaign and either revert back to 'Kick it Out' campaign or adopt the FA 'No Place for Racism' campaign.

That way there should be no confusion over the political belief of the BLM movement rather than the intent of BLM.

Ironsider wrote:Free speech is just a vehicle used for racists and bigots to spout their bile.

Like it or lump it, this country has become a sewer run by racists, where those who would have been ostracised for such abhorrent views are now part of the normal political and social discourse.

Antifascist, anti racists, anti bigots are portrayed as hard far left or marxists, as exemplified in a few misguided and ignorant posts in this thread.

Personally I feel the best remedy to absolve racists and bigots of their views is a good hiding. These tossers like Tommy Robinson who have become poster boys for this element, the same type of knob who booed as Millwall, should be on the end of a severe kicking, it's the only language that will get through to their thick heads.

Don't start bleating about free speech, it's a get out for the very worst in society to spread their poison.

If you're offended by 22 blokes kneeling on a football pitch for a few seconds then you're a part of the problem and need to put the Daily Mail and Sun down and get a grip.

The end.

While I agree with you in the thrust of your argument I’m not up for the violent bit. However, when you’ve got a PM who talks about “ picaninnies with watermelon smiles “ and likens Moslem women to letterboxes then it’s bound to encourage racism from those who had previously not felt emboldened to spout their racist bile and throw abuse, bananas and now pre-match boos at their own team’s footballers.
We must never forget how this inevitably ends, you start off “ othering “ groups like socialists, marxists, certain racial groups and the disabled and socially useless and you end with extermination camps Auschwitz, Treblinka , Sorbibor, Buchenwald etc.
That’s why a couple of seconds before a game as a reminder is hardly a big problem at all. If it’s considered to be extraneous to the actual game then so are the minute silences and the poppies.

Ironsider wrote:Free speech is just a vehicle used for racists and bigots to spout their bile.

Like it or lump it, this country has become a sewer run by racists, where those who would have been ostracised for such abhorrent views are now part of the normal political and social discourse.

Antifascist, anti racists, anti bigots are portrayed as hard far left or marxists, as exemplified in a few misguided and ignorant posts in this thread.

Personally I feel the best remedy to absolve racists and bigots of their views is a good hiding. These tossers like Tommy Robinson who have become poster boys for this element, the same type of knob who booed as Millwall, should be on the end of a severe kicking, it's the only language that will get through to their thick heads.

Don't start bleating about free speech, it's a get out for the very worst in society to spread their poison.

If you're offended by 22 blokes kneeling on a football pitch for a few seconds then you're a part of the problem and need to put the Daily Mail and Sun down and get a grip.

The end.

While I agree with you in the thrust of your argument I’m not up for the violent bit. However, when you’ve got a PM who talks about “ picaninnies with watermelon smiles “ and likens Moslem women to letterboxes then it’s bound to encourage racism from those who had previously not felt emboldened to spout their racist bile and throw abuse, bananas and now pre-match boos at their own team’s footballers.
We must never forget how this inevitably ends, you start off “ othering “ groups like socialists, marxists, certain racial groups and the disabled and socially useless and you end with extermination camps Auschwitz, Treblinka , Sorbibor, Buchenwald etc.
That’s why a couple of seconds before a game as a reminder is hardly a big problem at all. If it’s considered to be extraneous to the actual game then so are the minute silences and the poppies.